Bandcamp vs. AI | Matt Connarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: I did as promised. I wanted to talk about some news.

0:02 Speaker 1: You know, we mentioned band Camp on the show earlier.

0:05 Speaker 2: Band Camp.

0:05 Speaker 1: Two things that come up a lot on the show

0:07 Speaker 1: band Camp the website of course, bandcamp dot com, and

0:10 Speaker 1: AI and how AI is affecting how music is made, generated,

0:15 Speaker 1: consumed in the music industry. And band Camp has now

0:20 Speaker 1: banned AI generated music. They have made it official saying

0:24 Speaker 1: that they want musicians to keep making music. And you know,

0:27 Speaker 1: we've got kind of a point counterpoint on this to

0:29 Speaker 1: look at. But first, this is from Music Businessworldwide dot com.

0:34 Speaker 1: And this just happened, by the way. They just announced

0:36 Speaker 1: this ban a couple days ago. According to this website

0:40 Speaker 1: direct tofan platform, band Camp said it will ban artificial

0:43 Speaker 1: intelligence generated music and audio from its platform, including any

0:48 Speaker 1: use of AI tools to impersonate other artists or styles.

0:53 Speaker 1: The company made the announcement in a post on Wednesday,

0:56 Speaker 1: January fourteen.

0:56 Speaker 2: So this just happened. Like I said a few days ago.

1:00 Speaker 1: Quote, something that always strikes us as we put together

1:05 Speaker 1: a round up like this is the sheer quantity of

1:08 Speaker 1: human creativity and passion that artists express on band Camp

1:12 Speaker 1: every single day. The fact that band Camp is home

1:14 Speaker 1: to such a vibrant community of real people making incredible

1:17 Speaker 1: music is something we want to protect and maintain unquote.

1:22 Speaker 1: And by the way, and this came up during our

1:24 Speaker 1: conversation with Adam steglitic have ever felt in the second hour,

1:29 Speaker 1: I think what we talked about with Adam, it was

1:31 Speaker 1: either with Adam or with Grimrock.

1:33 Speaker 2: No, I think it was with Adam. We were talking

1:35 Speaker 2: about how band Camp.

1:36 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I'm such a proponent of

1:38 Speaker 1: it is if you get your music files from band Camp,

1:41 Speaker 1: You're getting a high quality music file, much higher quality

1:43 Speaker 1: than say if you're just streaming it on YouTube or

1:46 Speaker 1: something like that. So just something to be aware of too.

1:48 Speaker 1: Band Camp is really good that way, it says here again.

1:51 Speaker 1: According to this article, band Camp said music and audio

1:54 Speaker 1: that has created quote holly or in substantial part by

1:57 Speaker 1: AI unquote will no longer be allowed on the platform.

2:01 Speaker 1: The company will also enforce existing policies against any use

2:05 Speaker 1: of AI tools to copy other artists or styles. The

2:10 Speaker 1: company said, quote, we want musicians to keep making music

2:13 Speaker 1: and for fans have confidence that the music they find

2:15 Speaker 1: on band Camp was created by humans unquote. This has

2:21 Speaker 1: come up several times. Like I said, over the past

2:23 Speaker 1: couple of years. You know, Jenny and I talk about

2:25 Speaker 1: this all the time on the show, the effect of

2:27 Speaker 1: AI in the music industry and in the creation of music.

2:29 Speaker 2: And there are some tools like.

2:31 Speaker 1: Pseudo dot com, which we've experimented with live on the show,

2:35 Speaker 1: that they can make some really realistic sounding, you know,

2:38 Speaker 1: music that sounds like it was made by humans, entirely

2:41 Speaker 1: by humans. One thing that look, it's any platform has

2:48 Speaker 1: the right, whether it's band Camp, whether it's YouTube, whomever.

2:52 Speaker 1: As frustrating as it can be at times, any platform

2:55 Speaker 1: has a right to police and control what the content is,

3:00 Speaker 1: in this case music, when we talk about band Camp,

3:02 Speaker 1: what the content is it is being uploaded to their platform. However,

3:08 Speaker 1: I really worry with policies like this that because it's

3:15 Speaker 1: going to happen, it's inevitable. I guess it's an extent

3:18 Speaker 1: it's impossible to prevent this. So it comes down to

3:21 Speaker 1: an extent to which it ends up happening. Artists are

3:25 Speaker 1: going to get caught in the net. And I don't

3:28 Speaker 1: mean net as an internet, I mean net as in

3:30 Speaker 1: like a fishing net. Artists are going to get caught

3:34 Speaker 1: in the net where whatever software band Camp is using

3:40 Speaker 1: to detect AI generated music, there are going to be

3:44 Speaker 1: artists who are flagged by band Camp as being AI generated,

3:50 Speaker 1: who in fact are not AI generated.

3:53 Speaker 2: It's going to happen. It's unavoidable. Okay.

3:57 Speaker 1: So I'm not saying that because that's going to happen,

4:03 Speaker 1: that band Camp should not do this. I'm not saying that.

4:06 Speaker 1: But what I am expressing is a concern that what

4:09 Speaker 1: if it happens a lot. Because anybody who's ever created

4:14 Speaker 1: anything that you've then put on the Internet for mass consumption,

4:18 Speaker 1: whether it's music, whether it's a podcast, doing a radio

4:22 Speaker 1: show that you know, in addition to being live on

4:25 Speaker 1: FM radio also streams online. Anybody who's ever created anything

4:30 Speaker 1: knows that sometimes you can get flagged, you can get tagged,

4:35 Speaker 1: you can get dinged for something by these platforms that

4:41 Speaker 1: is in fact, uh not correct, and you're getting blamed

4:46 Speaker 1: for something that you didn't necessarily do you know. Look,

4:50 Speaker 1: I've been on YouTube for a very long time. You know,

4:56 Speaker 1: it hasn't happened in a long time, but I have

4:58 Speaker 1: in the past. More so when I was doing a

5:02 Speaker 1: lot more political content, I would get I would get

5:04 Speaker 1: dinged by YouTube for things. So you can't say this,

5:07 Speaker 1: you can't talk about that. You've got to strike on

5:09 Speaker 1: your account now because you said this, you repeated this,

5:16 Speaker 1: and this is not accurate. You can't do that, you know.

5:19 Speaker 1: And most of the time, not to sound like I'm

5:24 Speaker 1: shirking responsibility, but most of the time it's like, wait

5:28 Speaker 1: a minute, that's not what I said. They're flagging me

5:30 Speaker 1: for I was quoting something somebody else said that wasn't

5:34 Speaker 1: my opinion. Why are they Why am I being penalized

5:39 Speaker 1: for repeating what somebody else said and making it clear?

5:42 Speaker 1: But see, you know what happens is right there is

5:44 Speaker 1: these the bots. They it's all it's AI. See, that's

5:50 Speaker 1: the thing. They use AI to detect AI. That's what

5:53 Speaker 1: band camp is going to be doing here. They're going

5:55 Speaker 1: to use AI to detect when there's AI and AI.

6:00 Speaker 2: The AI that.

6:01 Speaker 1: They're using to detect whether or not they there's AI

6:03 Speaker 1: is not going to get it right every time, especially

6:08 Speaker 1: when because this is a little broad when they say

6:16 Speaker 1: band camp, okay, band Camp said music and audio that

6:20 Speaker 1: is created holly or in substantial part by AI. Listen

6:26 Speaker 1: any any recording studio you know that that is modern

6:33 Speaker 1: is probably you know, probably has software in their computers

6:37 Speaker 1: in that recording.

6:38 Speaker 2: Studio that use AI to fix things, to tweak things.

6:42 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so ingrained in everything, and it really

6:47 Speaker 1: has been with us for you know, some people act like, oh,

6:50 Speaker 1: AI it's this new thing.

6:51 Speaker 2: It's not.

6:52 Speaker 1: It's just becoming a lot more prevalent with access to

6:55 Speaker 1: tools like chat ebt and things like this. But AI,

6:59 Speaker 1: there's always been an element of AI, not always literally,

7:03 Speaker 1: but for a very long time in everything we do.

7:06 Speaker 1: I mean, look, even twenty years ago, you could go online,

7:12 Speaker 1: for example, and you could interact with chatbots. Maybe there's

7:18 Speaker 1: a particular service that you are having a problem with.

7:23 Speaker 1: Maybe you made a purchase through a website, for example,

7:26 Speaker 1: and your item never arrived. There's something wrong with it.

7:29 Speaker 1: So you go to the website and you try to

7:32 Speaker 1: contact someone to get some help with your purchase, and

7:37 Speaker 1: you end up talking to someone through a chat box. Right,

7:43 Speaker 1: You're talking to someone, but the person you're talking to

7:46 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be able to help you very much,

7:48 Speaker 1: or they seem to be really easily confused by what

7:51 Speaker 1: you're trying to communicate to them. Why, Because it's not

7:54 Speaker 1: an actual person. It's a chatbot, it's a bot. It's

7:57 Speaker 1: AI that's been with us for a very long so

8:02 Speaker 1: it's not new. It's much more prevalent, especially over the

8:10 Speaker 1: last couple of years. It's much more prevalent than it

8:12 Speaker 1: was and will continue to be. It seems to be

8:14 Speaker 1: accelerating and unavoidable, but it's not perfect, and it makes mistakes.

8:25 Speaker 1: It's almost makes it kind of human in that sense.

8:27 Speaker 1: Right now, as it becomes more sophisticated, I presume it

8:31 Speaker 1: will make fewer and fewer mistakes, but it still makes mistakes.

8:34 Speaker 1: So in other words, again, I say all that to say,

8:36 Speaker 1: people are going to get caught up in this net.

8:38 Speaker 1: When I see these platforms saying well, we're going to

8:40 Speaker 1: ban any use of AI in anything that is uploaded

8:43 Speaker 1: to our platform, It's like, but how are you going

8:46 Speaker 1: to accurately detect it? And I know some will say, no,

8:50 Speaker 1: there's nothing to worry about here. You'd be surprised. I've

8:53 Speaker 1: had people tell me that, Matt, you'd be very surprised

8:55 Speaker 1: at how accurate AI can detect when there's AI being used.

9:00 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit skeptical because again I'm someone who

9:04 Speaker 1: has seen what happens when AI tells me, for example,

9:11 Speaker 1: that I've done something wrong on YouTube, when I didn't

9:14 Speaker 1: even do the thing that I'm being accused of by

9:16 Speaker 1: this bot, and good luck trying to talk to a

9:19 Speaker 1: real person, you know.

9:21 Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong.

9:22 Speaker 1: There's been a couple of instances where I've appealed strikes

9:25 Speaker 1: on my channel and one. But I've also lost some

9:29 Speaker 1: too that I shouldn't have lost. But again, it's it

9:32 Speaker 1: is AI. It's not a human being I'm talking to.

9:35 Speaker 1: So so that's my concern about this.

9:40 Speaker 2: Again.

9:40 Speaker 1: Ultimately, they can do whatever they want, it's their platform,

9:42 Speaker 1: but I worry about people getting caught up in the

9:45 Speaker 1: net who shouldn't be. It also says here again continuing

9:48 Speaker 1: with this article, This is from Music Businessworldwide dot com.

9:50 Speaker 1: It says band Camp said the new policy was driven

9:53 Speaker 1: by quote the sheer quantity of human creativity and passion

9:57 Speaker 1: that artists express on band Camp every single day. Users

10:01 Speaker 1: will be able to report suspected AI generated content through

10:05 Speaker 1: band Camp's reporting tools. The company says it reserves the

10:08 Speaker 1: right to remove music based on suspicion of AI generation.

10:11 Speaker 1: The company said it will update the policy as AI

10:13 Speaker 1: technology continues to develop. The announcement comes over four months

10:17 Speaker 1: since band camp launched a new thirteen dollars a month

10:21 Speaker 1: subscription service that is human curated. The service gives users

10:25 Speaker 1: access to monthly recorded selections, listening parties, recommendations, and exclusive

10:31 Speaker 1: artists content. Band Camp general manager Dan Melnick at the

10:38 Speaker 1: time said, quote, instead of algorithms, fans get human curated

10:41 Speaker 1: picks from some of the best DJs and journalists in

10:44 Speaker 1: their respective areas, exclusive interviews with artists, and community listening parties.

10:49 Speaker 1: Vibrant music scenes are made up of dja's journalists, fans,

10:52 Speaker 1: and artists, and band camp clubs reflect that as always,

10:57 Speaker 1: artists are paid fairly and at the heart of the experience.

11:01 Speaker 2: Unquote all right, well, I like that. I like that.

11:05 Speaker 1: Founded in two thousand and eight, band camp launched as

11:08 Speaker 1: a direct to consumer alternative to record labels for artists.

11:12 Speaker 1: It has since expanded its services to include features such

11:14 Speaker 1: as ticket live streaming, and vinyl pressing. Artists like Peter

11:19 Speaker 1: Gabriel and b York have placed their catalogs on the platform.

11:24 Speaker 1: All Right, I don't want to get into the whole

11:25 Speaker 1: history of band camp, but uh okay, and then it

11:30 Speaker 1: gets into some more details about band Camp. Oh, I'm

11:33 Speaker 1: skipping down though, because Spotify is mentioned here and I

11:35 Speaker 1: remember we talked about this on the show too, and

11:37 Speaker 1: I expressed the same concern when talking about Spotify removing

11:40 Speaker 1: AI generated music. Some artists are going to get caught

11:43 Speaker 1: in the net, it says here. Spotify in September said

11:46 Speaker 1: it removed more than seventy five million spammy tracks from

11:52 Speaker 1: its platform over the past year. Amid the explosion of

11:55 Speaker 1: generative AI tools, the streaming giant rolled out new policies

11:59 Speaker 1: for managing AIG generated content on its service to address that.

12:04 Speaker 1: In November, French streaming platform Deezer said it receives over

12:08 Speaker 1: fifty thousand fully AI generated tracks daily, or thirty four

12:13 Speaker 1: percent of all tracks uploaded to its platform each day.

12:16 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's nuts. That is wild. Now. So

12:23 Speaker 2: that's band Camp's position. Now someone has.

12:27 Speaker 1: Offered a I don't know if rebuke is quite the

12:31 Speaker 1: right word, but there's an artist because you would think

12:35 Speaker 1: you would think recording artists would be in favor of

12:38 Speaker 1: what band camp is doing, and probably most are. But

12:42 Speaker 1: Holly Herndon says band Camp's AI ban is misguided. This

12:46 Speaker 1: comes from stereogum dot com. This went up just yesterday.

12:51 Speaker 1: Earlier this week, band Camp issued a blanket ban on

12:55 Speaker 1: generative AI and deep fake impersonations. The new measure makes

12:59 Speaker 1: band Camp an exception on the streaming landscape where AI

13:03 Speaker 1: music is becoming more and more inescapable. Most of the

13:06 Speaker 1: reactions to this bandcam announcement were positive, but one artist

13:09 Speaker 1: who's not applauding it is Holly Herndon, an experimental artist

13:15 Speaker 1: who has long messed around with what she sees as

13:18 Speaker 1: the artistic possibilities of AI technology. Holly Herndon has a

13:23 Speaker 1: PhD from Stanford's Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics,

13:28 Speaker 1: and she has made her most recent album, twenty nineteen's

13:31 Speaker 1: Proto with Spawn and AI Baby, curated by Herndon and

13:36 Speaker 1: her partner Matt Dryhurst. A few years ago, Herndon and

13:41 Speaker 1: Dryhurst launched Spawning, a tool that allows artists to choose

13:49 Speaker 1: whether or not their work will be used to train AI,

13:52 Speaker 1: and that work earned them Austria's first Digital Human Rights Award. Interesting,

13:58 Speaker 1: I didn't know that was the thing. On Wednesday, in

14:01 Speaker 1: response to Bandcamp's new policy, Herndon tweeted this, putting the

14:07 Speaker 1: ban in band Camp. It is a wicked problem, so

14:10 Speaker 1: I understand what they are trying to do. I'm sure

14:13 Speaker 1: the human moderators won't be banning artists exploring AI. Rather,

14:17 Speaker 1: I hope, will just be looking to filter out sound spam.

14:21 Speaker 1: The gray area will only get larger m HM. After

14:27 Speaker 1: a negative response to that tweet, Herndon elaborated with a thread.

14:32 Speaker 1: She said this, I understand why band camp is taking

14:36 Speaker 1: this measure, but it's a tourniquet. The human AI binary

14:41 Speaker 1: is not going to hold and will become a matter

14:44 Speaker 1: of superficial optics. I already have more authorship in my

14:47 Speaker 1: models than most pop stars do in their songs. People

14:51 Speaker 1: will already be using models to generate songs they then

14:54 Speaker 1: put a human filter on. Artists will integrate generated passages

14:59 Speaker 1: into they orchestrate, and will soon train their own models.

15:03 Speaker 1: Another protection might be to flag accounts it posts on

15:07 Speaker 1: an inhuman amount of content, but that too may seem retrograde.

15:13 Speaker 1: We live with infinite media now. I encourage platforms to

15:16 Speaker 1: be more curated, but enforcing a hard human AI binary

15:21 Speaker 1: is not the right way to address this long term.

15:24 Speaker 1: If an expert uses AI to help them write an article,

15:27 Speaker 1: they otherwise would not have the time to complete it

15:30 Speaker 1: will not be of less substance than a non expert

15:34 Speaker 1: with time on their hands writing something by hand. A

15:38 Speaker 1: practice or reputation of thought and work developed over time

15:41 Speaker 1: is the best filter. The contemporary demand for twenty four

15:45 Speaker 1: to seven content from people is the problem. So that's

15:55 Speaker 1: that's basically her argument. So she's concerned. She has some

15:58 Speaker 1: of the same concerns you, I mean from a little

16:01 Speaker 1: bit of a you know, from a different perspective.

16:02 Speaker 2: But but.

16:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think the tooth based is probably

16:09 Speaker 1: pretty far out of the tube at this point. As

16:12 Speaker 1: I like to say, Now, there's another element to this though,

16:18 Speaker 1: and this is this is the part that people don't

16:20 Speaker 1: talk about very much. But this came up on the

16:22 Speaker 1: show not long ago. These streaming platforms because of the

16:28 Speaker 1: rise of AI generated music and and how easy it

16:32 Speaker 1: is to make it, and and it is a form

16:34 Speaker 1: of spam. I think Holly Herndon referred to it as

16:36 Speaker 1: sound spam when you just if you just make a

16:39 Speaker 1: whole bunch of AI tracks and just upload them all

16:41 Speaker 1: at once to Spotify and bandcamp, YouTube and wherever else,

16:46 Speaker 1: it does cause a problem. Uh, in terms of storage

16:49 Speaker 1: because you know, we like to think of you know,

16:52 Speaker 1: it's just data. It's not it's not something, uh you

16:57 Speaker 1: know that you can touch or feel or it's or

16:59 Speaker 1: hold it. It's data is Therefore, there's just a It

17:03 Speaker 1: doesn't take up any actual room anywhere. You just have

17:05 Speaker 1: this infinite amount of storage space to put data. But

17:08 Speaker 1: that's not true.

17:10 Speaker 2: You have to.

17:12 Speaker 1: You do have to create the physical mechanisms with which

17:15 Speaker 1: to store that data, and you do have to make

17:17 Speaker 1: more of those if you more and more data you

17:19 Speaker 1: have to store. So if you think about this, I

17:22 Speaker 1: don't know the numbers offhand how many different song files

17:27 Speaker 1: are on band Camp and Spotify, and obviously it's in

17:30 Speaker 1: the millions, perhaps in the billions, I don't know. But

17:35 Speaker 1: if if that's all been ratcheted up exponentially because of

17:39 Speaker 1: the rise and the ease with which you can create

17:43 Speaker 1: AI generated music, then that's a problem. So of course

17:46 Speaker 1: they have to find ways to filter this stuff out.

17:50 Speaker 1: And then I found this. This is on Music Businessworldwide

17:53 Speaker 1: dot com And this just went up a couple of

17:56 Speaker 1: days ago.

17:57 Speaker 2: Music streaming.

17:58 Speaker 1: Music streaming platform now host a quarter of a billion tracks.

18:04 Speaker 2: Where does it end?

18:07 Speaker 1: And uh, this is Uh, this is short, but it

18:10 Speaker 1: just kind of gives us an idea of the scope

18:14 Speaker 1: of the concern here, So it says here there were

18:18 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty three million music tracks sitting on

18:22 Speaker 1: audio streaming services at the close of twenty twenty five

18:26 Speaker 1: yep over a quarter of a million. According to new

18:30 Speaker 1: data from Lumini's new annual report, that was that was

18:36 Speaker 1: up only thirty seven point nine million tracks, an average

18:41 Speaker 1: of one hundred and six thousand uploads per day. Most

18:48 Speaker 1: of this music was far from popular. Almost half of

18:52 Speaker 1: the two hundred and fifty three million files hosted by

18:56 Speaker 1: audio platforms received fewer than ten streams last year, Almost

19:01 Speaker 1: three quarters of it received fewer than one hundred annual streams,

19:05 Speaker 1: and nearly nine tenths of it received fewer than one

19:08 Speaker 1: thousand annual streams. We're obviously a long long way from

19:11 Speaker 1: Apple's promise to deliver one thousand songs.

19:14 Speaker 2: In your pocket with the iPod.

19:16 Speaker 1: Yes, as AI generated music proliferates, are we now just

19:21 Speaker 1: a few short years from the likes of Spotify hosting

19:25 Speaker 1: quote one billion songs in your pocket. And wouldn't such

19:30 Speaker 1: a tidal wave of content inevitably swamp digital services while

19:34 Speaker 1: hurting artists, songwriters and the perceived value of music amongst consumers.

19:38 Speaker 2: This is all.

19:39 Speaker 1: These are all legitimate concerns. In my opinion, I don't

19:42 Speaker 1: know what the answer is. By the way, off, I'm

19:45 Speaker 1: not here to offer solutions because I have no idea

19:47 Speaker 1: what the answer is to this. But these are legitimate concerns.

19:51 Speaker 1: Universal Music Group CEO and chairman Sir Lucian Grange certainly

19:56 Speaker 1: thinks so, and he's keen to stop it from happening.

20:00 Speaker 1: Last week, Grange delivered a stark warning about AI generated

20:04 Speaker 1: content overwhelming streaming platforms. In his twenty twenty six New

20:08 Speaker 1: Year's Address. He wrote, quote, validating business models that failed

20:12 Speaker 1: to respect artists' work and creativity and promote the exponential

20:16 Speaker 1: growth of AI slop on streaming platforms is a grave

20:20 Speaker 1: disservice to artists', songwriters and all of us who work

20:24 Speaker 1: in music unquote, this warning was not theoretical. Last year

20:28 Speaker 1: Spotify removed think think about these numbers. Last year, Spotify

20:34 Speaker 1: removed over seventy five million spammy tracks from its platform,

20:39 Speaker 1: while rival Deezer reported receiving fifty thousand fully AI generated

20:45 Speaker 1: tracks per day, accounting for thirty four percent.

20:49 Speaker 2: Of all daily uploads.

20:54 Speaker 1: So think about that. So on any given day, deezer,

20:58 Speaker 1: what's being uploaded? A third of it a third is

21:01 Speaker 1: AI generated tracks. Yet despite this aggressive purging of content,

21:07 Speaker 1: the total amount of music and the global audio streaming

21:09 Speaker 1: ecosystem continued to soar. In twenty twenty five. Discussion around

21:14 Speaker 1: tracks that attract fewer than one thousand streams per year is,

21:17 Speaker 1: of course particularly relevant. Here illuminates new numbers help illustrate why,

21:23 Speaker 1: with UMG's encouragement, audio streaming services moved toward artist centric

21:27 Speaker 1: style payment models a couple of years ago, and why

21:31 Speaker 1: these models are now increasingly being stress tested by AI.

21:38 Speaker 2: In early twenty twenty.

21:39 Speaker 1: Four, Spotify introduced a threshold requiring tracks to attract at

21:42 Speaker 1: least one thousand plays in a twelve month period to

21:44 Speaker 1: qualify for royalty payouts, which a lot of people were

21:48 Speaker 1: mad about.

21:48 Speaker 2: They were critical of I get it though at.

21:50 Speaker 1: The time Spotify said ninety nine point five percent of

21:53 Speaker 1: streams on its platform went to tracks exceeding the one

21:56 Speaker 1: thousand annual streams threshold.

21:58 Speaker 2: Under its new.

21:59 Speaker 1: Policy, it's said each of those tracks would earn more

22:01 Speaker 1: with payouts previously going to sub one thousand stream tracks

22:05 Speaker 1: redirected back into the royalty pool. Deezer's artist centric model,

22:09 Speaker 1: launched in partnership with you Universal and Warner, achieved a

22:12 Speaker 1: similar aim, providing a double boost in royalties to artists

22:16 Speaker 1: with a minimum of one thousand streams per month and

22:18 Speaker 1: five hundred unique listeners.

22:21 Speaker 2: This goes on.

22:23 Speaker 1: There's a lot of numbers here, and we don't have

22:24 Speaker 1: time to get into all of it, but the article

22:26 Speaker 1: isn't that long, so if you want to check it out,

22:28 Speaker 1: Music Businessworldwide dot com, which is a great website for

22:31 Speaker 1: music news if you're interested in the industry and so forth.

22:35 Speaker 1: But we are rapidly running out of time, so I

22:39 Speaker 1: think we will close with that