Charlie Nieland | Matt Connarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: Such a great track. That is when Charlie Nyland or Niland.

0:03 Speaker 1: I think it's Niland, but we're going to ask him

0:05 Speaker 1: in just a moment because he is joining us online.

0:07 Speaker 1: Welcome everybody, if you are listening live. Today is Saturday,

0:10 Speaker 1: November twenty two, twenty twenty five. This is Matt Connorton

0:14 Speaker 1: Unleashed and we have entered our number three new Marrow

0:17 Speaker 1: trace of our program this morning from the studios of

0:21 Speaker 1: w n H ninety five point three FM in Glorious Manchester,

0:24 Speaker 1: New Hampshire. And of course you can stream the show

0:26 Speaker 1: from anywhere. Go to Matt connorton dot com, slash live

0:29 Speaker 1: for all of your live streaming options, social media links,

0:31 Speaker 1: contact infosho, archives, et cetera, et cetera. But let's get

0:35 Speaker 1: Charlie in here, because I am dying to talk with him. Charlie,

0:37 Speaker 1: are you there, Hi, Matt, Hey, Welcome to the show.

0:42 Speaker 1: First question, how do you say your last name Niland?

0:45 Speaker 1: It is Nland? Okay, good, I got it right, I

0:47 Speaker 1: thought so, but I wasn't one hundred percent sure. I

0:50 Speaker 1: love that song when and we'll talk about that, and

0:52 Speaker 1: we'll talk about a lot of things. But what a

0:55 Speaker 1: great track. Who is that on the song with you

0:56 Speaker 1: at the end, who's rapping?

0:58 Speaker 2: His name is Spirit Child. He's based out of Staten Island.

1:02 Speaker 2: I've known him here in the New York City area

1:04 Speaker 2: for about ten years for we both are in this

1:09 Speaker 2: thing called the Bushwick book Club. It's a performance series. Oh,

1:12 Speaker 2: I'll tell you more about it when you get to

1:14 Speaker 2: the song.

1:14 Speaker 1: But he's great, sure, sure, yeah, no, he's really good.

1:18 Speaker 1: It's kind of it's one of those things where when

1:21 Speaker 1: you listen to the song for the first time, you

1:22 Speaker 1: don't expect that, but it just it's a surprise, but

1:28 Speaker 1: it's so seamless, like it just fits so perfectly. You know.

1:31 Speaker 1: It's a nice surprise, because sometimes somebody might try to

1:34 Speaker 1: do something like that and you go, I don't know,

1:36 Speaker 1: it seems a little forced or whatever, but that is

1:38 Speaker 1: it just fits in perfectly. So good, so good. Absolutely,

1:43 Speaker 1: And you've got an album let's see this. I guess

1:48 Speaker 1: this has been out for a little while now, Stories

1:50 Speaker 1: from the Borderlines or this just came out last month?

1:52 Speaker 2: Actually, right, yeah, it's just been a few weeks.

1:55 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so this is very new. You've got a

1:57 Speaker 1: new single called Shame. I thought about playing that one,

2:00 Speaker 1: but we'll probably play that one a little later in

2:02 Speaker 1: the show because I wanted to play when I wanted

2:03 Speaker 1: to open with that. It's such a great positive song.

2:06 Speaker 1: But you've done You've done a lot of work. You're

2:09 Speaker 1: you're you've been around a while. You know, you've worked

2:11 Speaker 1: with people like Debbie Harry, Blondie, Rufus, Wainwright, Scissor Sisters.

2:17 Speaker 1: You're a composer, you know, you've done film and television.

2:21 Speaker 1: I really want to know tell us a little bit

2:24 Speaker 1: about your background, and then we'll kind of talk about

2:27 Speaker 1: what we're we'll come back to what you're doing now

2:29 Speaker 1: with your music, But I also would like to know

2:31 Speaker 1: more about you.

2:33 Speaker 2: Well, I'm from the Midwest, but I came to the

2:37 Speaker 2: East Coast and graduated from college and moved to New

2:39 Speaker 2: York City, and then I was in a band called

2:43 Speaker 2: Her Vanished Grace for about twenty five years, and a

2:46 Speaker 2: couple other bands throughout the nineties and into the two thousands.

2:51 Speaker 2: But in the beginning of the two thousands, I kind

2:54 Speaker 2: of stumbled into a situation where I was working on

2:57 Speaker 2: a film score for this movie called The Safety of

3:00 Speaker 2: Objects Okay, and then I started producing it became part

3:06 Speaker 2: of a production team, and that's where I worked with

3:10 Speaker 2: Debbie Harry on her solo album called Necessary Evil, which

3:14 Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and seven, Okay, And that

3:17 Speaker 2: was a really exciting experience, and basically we just continued

3:21 Speaker 2: writing with her after the album came out and ended

3:27 Speaker 2: up having some of those songs be on the next

3:31 Speaker 2: Blondie record in twenty eleven.

3:33 Speaker 1: Oh wow.

3:34 Speaker 2: And since since about twenty thirteen, I've been working on

3:40 Speaker 2: being a solo artist in addition to producing people, and

3:44 Speaker 2: that's where I'm now. This is my fourth album.

3:47 Speaker 1: Oh no kidding, Okay, what do you find most satisfying?

3:51 Speaker 1: I mean, is working on your own music as a

3:53 Speaker 1: solo artist? Is that? I don't know if more satisfying

3:56 Speaker 1: is probably probably not necessarily how you'd want to put it,

3:59 Speaker 1: but you understand what I'm asking you. I mean, do

4:01 Speaker 1: you get what do you get the most from in

4:03 Speaker 1: terms of what you're doing because you've worked in all

4:07 Speaker 1: these different areas well.

4:09 Speaker 2: It's an interesting challenge because I've been in bands a

4:13 Speaker 2: lot of times where I was I did get to

4:16 Speaker 2: sing my songs, but it was in like a group

4:18 Speaker 2: where there was more than one singer, so I was

4:20 Speaker 2: always like the other singer when there's a female vocalist,

4:23 Speaker 2: you know. And so I've been writing songs for a

4:28 Speaker 2: long time and co writing with people, and in the

4:32 Speaker 2: past ten years, I've got involved, as I mentioned, with

4:35 Speaker 2: this performance series called the Bushwick Book Club where each

4:40 Speaker 2: month the book is selected and songwriters react to the

4:43 Speaker 2: book and write a song, and then there's a show

4:45 Speaker 2: where all the songs are presented. And I sort of

4:50 Speaker 2: got involved in producing that, so I ended up writing

4:54 Speaker 2: a lot of songs that way. Yeah, And I don't know,

4:58 Speaker 2: I've just been expanding my circle and getting involved with

5:02 Speaker 2: things like that, and another series called The Loser's Lounge,

5:06 Speaker 2: which is here in New York, where we sing at

5:09 Speaker 2: Joe's Pub with a fantastic backing band. It's it's covers,

5:12 Speaker 2: but it's like there's a theme each for each performance.

5:17 Speaker 1: Yeah.

5:18 Speaker 2: But I found that these things have helped me kind

5:23 Speaker 2: of find my identity as an artist, as a performing artist,

5:28 Speaker 2: and I'm really excited about it. Now. I enjoy playing

5:30 Speaker 2: full sets of my own music and I feel like,

5:34 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a vehicle for this thing that's coming

5:37 Speaker 2: through me, and so you know, I do love collaborating

5:42 Speaker 2: those Yeah, and I get to do that a lot

5:44 Speaker 2: in production, but when I produce my own music, it

5:48 Speaker 2: does it gets to be It's interesting because I can

5:54 Speaker 2: really take my time in certain parts of the process

5:57 Speaker 2: and just try a lot of different ideas, yeah, and

6:00 Speaker 2: slowly build up layers. I think on stories from the borderlines,

6:04 Speaker 2: there's a lot of that. It's kind of like a

6:05 Speaker 2: musical diary. Okay, okay.

6:09 Speaker 1: In terms of, uh, how you approach how you approach songwriting,

6:14 Speaker 1: I'm curious if do you consciously try to do something

6:18 Speaker 1: that's that's unique and out of the mainstream or does

6:22 Speaker 1: that sort of happen organically because these songs, you know,

6:26 Speaker 1: none of them are anything that you would necessarily hear, Like,

6:30 Speaker 1: I don't know what radio format they would fit into

6:32 Speaker 1: necessarily on commercial radio. You know, they're they're they're different,

6:35 Speaker 1: which is what makes them so interesting. They're very catchy,

6:38 Speaker 1: they're very catchy and listenable. They're accessible, but they're but

6:41 Speaker 1: they're also unique. It kind of reminds me of just

6:44 Speaker 1: a random example, like like if a band like Talking

6:47 Speaker 1: Heads were to exist today and someone asked me, Matt,

6:50 Speaker 1: what would you do with this band? You know, and Obviously,

6:52 Speaker 1: Talking Heads was hugely commercially successful in the eighties. But

6:55 Speaker 1: if someone said, you know, if they were out today

6:56 Speaker 1: and Matt, someone said, Matt, what do you do with

6:58 Speaker 1: this band? I don't. I don't know exactly. You know,

7:00 Speaker 1: I'd want to do like maybe some college radio stuff

7:02 Speaker 1: for them, but I don't know where I would put

7:04 Speaker 1: them in terms of a commercially viable radio genre. And

7:08 Speaker 1: I feel like your music is like that, where it's

7:11 Speaker 1: it's catchy, it's accessible, the songs are great, but I

7:14 Speaker 1: don't I don't know where they fit necessarily, and I'm

7:16 Speaker 1: wondering if that's intentional on your part.

7:18 Speaker 2: I think it's natural, but I do. I'm aware of

7:22 Speaker 2: that definitely. I mean, I think for me, I think

7:27 Speaker 2: the most I think of genre as like a geography.

7:31 Speaker 2: You know, there are certain kinds of music that that's

7:34 Speaker 2: right in the middle of it of a genre, and

7:36 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, that's definitely dance pop, or that's definitely

7:40 Speaker 2: e DM or that's definitely you know, metal. But I

7:45 Speaker 2: think out at the edges of the borders of these genres,

7:51 Speaker 2: it's there are artists who are doing stuff that kind

7:54 Speaker 2: of freely mixes things and comes up with their own hybrids.

7:59 Speaker 2: I mean, and that's where someone like Prince came from,

8:02 Speaker 2: or Bowie or Talking Heads, where like the Talking Heads

8:07 Speaker 2: weren't commercially successful at first.

8:10 Speaker 1: Right, it took a while.

8:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, but now they're remembered because they did succeed as

8:18 Speaker 2: a college rock band. And again that was college rock

8:22 Speaker 2: became alternative. You know, in the eighties, alternative didn't necessarily

8:27 Speaker 2: mean what it meant in the nineties, it was kind

8:31 Speaker 2: of a catch all for stuff that wasn't in a specific,

8:36 Speaker 2: you know, central style. That they often mixed a lot

8:39 Speaker 2: of different things together, and so that's kind of my

8:41 Speaker 2: natural that's my resting place kind of.

8:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've just.

8:47 Speaker 2: There's been times when I've been in bands where we

8:50 Speaker 2: sort of really focused our sound into something that was,

8:55 Speaker 2: you know, the her vanished grace. We called it power

8:58 Speaker 2: dream pop. So we were kind of zeroing in on

9:01 Speaker 2: a certain subset of alternative of post punk and dream pop,

9:06 Speaker 2: and those are still strong influences in my music. But yeah,

9:09 Speaker 2: I think, especially in this album, I just allowed each

9:13 Speaker 2: song to have its own character and its own landscape,

9:17 Speaker 2: and it's kind of like a series of different movies

9:21 Speaker 2: or stories. So my girlfriend said it, it's like they're

9:24 Speaker 2: all different stories, and that kind of led to the

9:27 Speaker 2: title of the album.

9:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent. I do want to hear more

9:32 Speaker 1: about the Bushwick book Love, because I'm curious if when

9:37 Speaker 1: you when you bring a song into that that forum,

9:40 Speaker 1: I mean, is that is that intimidating it all? Because

9:43 Speaker 1: obviously other people are gonna are gonna have their their

9:46 Speaker 1: their judgments or assessments of it.

9:49 Speaker 2: Well, it's fun because everybody has a different approach. Yeah,

9:52 Speaker 2: and the book for me, I always write a song

9:57 Speaker 2: that can stand outside the busher Club performance. You don't

10:01 Speaker 2: have to have read the book to enjoy it, you know. Yeah,

10:04 Speaker 2: and to relate to it. Usually I use some aspect

10:07 Speaker 2: of the story or a character or an idea from

10:11 Speaker 2: the books. Sometimes it's just one page in the book

10:13 Speaker 2: like sets me off and I'm like, oh, this will

10:16 Speaker 2: be good imagery for this thing that I've already been

10:18 Speaker 2: thinking about. And that's kind of what happened with Wyn

10:24 Speaker 2: And that was part of an interesting an interesting thing

10:31 Speaker 2: that happened where we got invited to the Kurt Vonnegut

10:35 Speaker 2: Museum and Library for a whole week for a residency.

10:39 Speaker 2: Oh wow, and they have a series where they have

10:44 Speaker 2: a band book Band Book Week nice and usually usually

10:50 Speaker 2: it's writers that come and participate, but since we've done

10:54 Speaker 2: a lot of Vonnegut in Bushwick Book Club, they invited

10:58 Speaker 2: a group of us. It was five us and we

11:01 Speaker 2: spent the week there and at the end of the

11:04 Speaker 2: week we presented songs that we had written that week,

11:07 Speaker 2: all inspired by band books, and we had a concert

11:10 Speaker 2: Oh wow, And it was to make a long story short.

11:14 Speaker 2: I was like, the last one to finish my song.

11:16 Speaker 2: Everyone's gonna got a song going, and I was like,

11:19 Speaker 2: I'm having really struggling. It was a great book I

11:21 Speaker 2: was working on I was working with called All Boys

11:25 Speaker 2: Aren't Blue. It was one of the most banned books

11:28 Speaker 2: in two thousand and twenty two, really and yeah, it's

11:34 Speaker 2: a coming of age story. It's a ya book about

11:37 Speaker 2: being young, black and queer, and it was really a

11:42 Speaker 2: beautifully written book, but at the time there was a

11:46 Speaker 2: strong book banning thing going on in schools. So anyway,

11:53 Speaker 2: I woke up in the middle of the night with

11:56 Speaker 2: the chorus words to that song I just want you

11:59 Speaker 2: to win Oh, and I kind of like just wrote

12:03 Speaker 2: it down in the notes app on my phone. I

12:04 Speaker 2: got up in the morning and I was like, whoa

12:06 Speaker 2: this is this really feels good. And then I'd also

12:09 Speaker 2: been thinking about some other stuff and the song just

12:12 Speaker 2: all like poured out that morning. And we all supported

12:16 Speaker 2: each other in terms of being each other's backup musicians

12:20 Speaker 2: for the concert at the end of the week, and

12:22 Speaker 2: so we started working on my song and spirit Child

12:25 Speaker 2: was there doing his music and I was like, you know,

12:30 Speaker 2: I think this would sound great if you came up

12:33 Speaker 2: with something for this. Yeah, And so the at the

12:37 Speaker 2: show it was a kind of a combination of stuff

12:39 Speaker 2: he had written, you know, in response to my lyrics

12:43 Speaker 2: and freestyled kind of at the same time. And that

12:47 Speaker 2: got recorded and then when I went to record the

12:51 Speaker 2: and it was so great, you know. So when I

12:54 Speaker 2: recorded the album like a year or two later, I

12:58 Speaker 2: asked Spiritual to contribut you to it. And now recently

13:02 Speaker 2: we just at our album release show, he was able

13:05 Speaker 2: to join us live on stage and it was fantastic.

13:07 Speaker 2: It really kicked the room into overdrive. It was so good.

13:10 Speaker 1: I can imagine, yeah, I can imagine, Yeah, that song

13:13 Speaker 1: must go over well live anyway, I would think, because

13:16 Speaker 1: it's got such an energy to it, And you know,

13:18 Speaker 1: I really like the lyrics, and I think you know,

13:20 Speaker 1: you talked about what the lyrics are about, and I

13:23 Speaker 1: think you even referenced this that you know, obviously they're

13:27 Speaker 1: about that book, but also there's relatable themes within those

13:31 Speaker 1: lyrics that anyone can relate to, and and anyone who's

13:35 Speaker 1: ever felt marginalized in some way.

13:37 Speaker 2: Or actually a lot of a lot of.

13:38 Speaker 1: Your music I think is probably relatable for anyone who's

13:41 Speaker 1: ever felt marginalized or ostracized or I mean, I feel

13:46 Speaker 1: like that's kind of a theme. You know, you've kind

13:48 Speaker 1: of you've got everybody's back, you know, you're in terms

13:52 Speaker 1: of what they're going through.

13:54 Speaker 2: Well, I think, in my view and my uh I envision,

14:03 Speaker 2: that we've created identities for ourselves that make it feel

14:09 Speaker 2: like we're all separate from each other, but there's an

14:13 Speaker 2: underlying thing that we're all part of one energy wave.

14:18 Speaker 2: So if all these things that we've taught ourselves about

14:22 Speaker 2: other people and the way we relate to people that

14:26 Speaker 2: we feel are our adversaries or our enemies, actually they

14:30 Speaker 2: become very close to us. You know, we really wrap

14:34 Speaker 2: ourselves up and identifying ourselves in opposition to things, and

14:39 Speaker 2: and if that dissolves a little bit, that's really a

14:43 Speaker 2: solvent for a lot of the strife that's going on.

14:47 Speaker 2: And I just want to be a part of that.

14:50 Speaker 1: Yeah. I notice that, you know, these ongoing sort of

14:55 Speaker 1: cultural battles around gender identity and all of it, you know,

15:01 Speaker 1: which is seems like it's become so heightened in these times,

15:05 Speaker 1: and I feel like the music that you're making is

15:08 Speaker 1: really this is kind of the moment for it, right.

15:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think we can be playful about it.

15:17 Speaker 2: And I understand that a lot of it comes from

15:20 Speaker 2: fear and fear of people that we feel are opposed

15:26 Speaker 2: to us or are you know, symbolize something of an other.

15:31 Speaker 2: But so I'm sympathetic to that. I don't think people

15:36 Speaker 2: should be ostracized because of that. But I also feel like,

15:41 Speaker 2: I don't know, I think everybody has because there's been

15:46 Speaker 2: the systems in place of systematic racism and stuff like that.

15:52 Speaker 2: We all have work to do, but it's it's something

15:55 Speaker 2: that we can all give each other some space to

15:58 Speaker 2: do instead of, you know, being cruel to each other.

16:02 Speaker 1: No, I like the way you say that. I like

16:03 Speaker 1: the way you say that because I think it's important

16:05 Speaker 1: to you know, not everything. I mean, obviously, no one

16:10 Speaker 1: should be ostracized and marginalized and all of that, but

16:13 Speaker 1: I think that there's a difference, you know, fear. Use

16:16 Speaker 1: that term fear, and I think that's an important word

16:18 Speaker 1: to use, because people tend to fear what they don't understand,

16:21 Speaker 1: or what they've never been exposed to, or what seems

16:24 Speaker 1: unusual to them. And you know, not not all of

16:27 Speaker 1: that stems from not all of it stems from hate.

16:29 Speaker 1: You know, some people are just blinded with hate for

16:32 Speaker 1: the you know, the quote unquote the other, and some

16:34 Speaker 1: people are just you know, they're just afraid. And I

16:38 Speaker 1: think music is a great music is a great vehicle

16:40 Speaker 1: to reach them.

16:41 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think. I mean, we're only fifty

16:46 Speaker 2: fifty hundred thousand years away from the Savannah, you know,

16:50 Speaker 2: we were. We there's a lot of evolutionary imperatives that

16:54 Speaker 2: were still that created this amazing survival in ste that

17:00 Speaker 2: we have as Homo sapiens. And but those things can

17:05 Speaker 2: really create problems for us too, right, and so we're

17:10 Speaker 2: still we have all these instincts that cause us to

17:14 Speaker 2: be tribal and cause us to to over identify with groups.

17:21 Speaker 2: I mean, at the same time, we have a lot

17:22 Speaker 2: of wisdom that comes through with and I think a

17:25 Speaker 2: lot of it comes through culture and comes through art,

17:28 Speaker 2: and I think that helps dissolve some of this stuff

17:34 Speaker 2: and helps people, you know, kind of forget to be

17:39 Speaker 2: so hateful.

17:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you see reactions with your music?

17:44 Speaker 1: Do you see reactions from advocacy groups and like, is

17:48 Speaker 1: there any any contact from anybody wanting you to get

17:51 Speaker 1: involved with their organizations or anything because of your music specifically?

17:56 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I did. In fact, I when I did

17:58 Speaker 2: an interview with journalist who has a series called on Tyranny,

18:03 Speaker 2: and it was about artists and their reactions to authoritarianism.

18:09 Speaker 2: So I said a bunch of this stuff that I

18:11 Speaker 2: just said, you know, But at the same time, I'm

18:13 Speaker 2: an artist, I'm not I'm getting more engaged politically, just

18:19 Speaker 2: on a local level here where I live in New Jersey.

18:21 Speaker 2: But yeah, that's just I think it's I think getting

18:26 Speaker 2: hand ringing and doom scrolling about the national political and

18:31 Speaker 2: world political situation can be a little overwhelming, and I

18:36 Speaker 2: think if you just get involved on your local level,

18:39 Speaker 2: that's way more helpful. So I've been doing that too.

18:42 Speaker 1: No, that's great. I think that's I think that's great advice.

18:46 Speaker 1: I do want to talk a bit about the song Shame,

18:49 Speaker 1: and we'll play that at the end of our conversation. Actually,

18:51 Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna play both that and Brutalist Monuments because

18:56 Speaker 1: at the end of our conversation, because I love both

18:58 Speaker 1: those songs, So I'll probably just play those two back

19:00 Speaker 1: to back. But but I do want to talk about

19:02 Speaker 1: Shame because officially Shame is the current single.

19:05 Speaker 2: Is that correct, Yeah, it was the second single. Yes,

19:09 Speaker 2: it's the current single led the album.

19:12 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, I want to ask you about this.

19:15 Speaker 1: This is another great track. There's an interesting line in

19:19 Speaker 1: it too, we eroticize what we despise, and I'm I'm

19:23 Speaker 1: curious about that, and uh, and if you could talk

19:25 Speaker 1: to about the song and you know, in a broader

19:27 Speaker 1: sense about what it's about, what the theme is, and

19:29 Speaker 1: and how it relates to everything that we've been discussing.

19:33 Speaker 2: Well again, I think that this was a song that

19:37 Speaker 2: was written as part of a Busher book club event

19:41 Speaker 2: based around a book called When brook When Brooklyn was Queer,

19:44 Speaker 2: and it was a history of of queer and gay

19:50 Speaker 2: experience in Brooklyn for the past few hundred years, and uh,

19:56 Speaker 2: I was just really struck by. There was a part

19:58 Speaker 2: in the book where they describe how there was a

20:00 Speaker 2: really thriving waterfront scene in Brooklyn in like the eighteen

20:07 Speaker 2: eighties and eighteen nineties where in the river on the

20:14 Speaker 2: Hudson River part of Brooklyn or the Gowanis River. Maybe

20:18 Speaker 2: I'm sorry getting lost there, but that there was a

20:25 Speaker 2: lot of drag performing and there was these were kind

20:29 Speaker 2: of like bars and clubs where people would meet. But

20:34 Speaker 2: at the same time, there were a lot of people

20:36 Speaker 2: just came for the culture and came for the entertainment.

20:40 Speaker 2: And then at that time, there wasn't even a word

20:44 Speaker 2: homosexual hadn't really been coined yet and starting around I

20:50 Speaker 2: think it came into use around the time Freud was writing,

20:56 Speaker 2: and after that it became a diagnosis. And after that

20:59 Speaker 2: they started putting gays in jail in the New York area.

21:04 Speaker 2: They even made a special penitentiary for them, did they like,

21:07 Speaker 2: I didn't know that in Brooklyn. Yeah, And it to

21:13 Speaker 2: me that just struck me as like once the name

21:16 Speaker 2: got coined, then a lot of people were able to

21:21 Speaker 2: focus in on that and say, oh, this is the

21:23 Speaker 2: thing we're afraid of. And it just reminded me of now,

21:27 Speaker 2: how there's so much like sort of a fetishization of

21:35 Speaker 2: trans culture. And like RuPaul's drag Race was like water

21:40 Speaker 2: cooler TV. You know, everybody talked about and everyone watched

21:44 Speaker 2: it and found it really entertaining. But then when the

21:48 Speaker 2: transidentities got weaponized by politics, all of a sudden, those

21:53 Speaker 2: same people who are so fascinated and kind of titillated

21:56 Speaker 2: by it were full of like, Okay, let's get these

21:59 Speaker 2: people out of public of public view. And I just

22:04 Speaker 2: think there's a real that my little phrase, we eoticize

22:07 Speaker 2: what we despise Again, it's like we get wrapped up

22:12 Speaker 2: in identification with something that we are opposed to, and

22:18 Speaker 2: when actually there's a lot there's an extreme similarity between

22:24 Speaker 2: what we think of as our shadow, you know. Yeah,

22:28 Speaker 2: So this song is sort of like creates a couple

22:31 Speaker 2: of different identities and the verses one like one person

22:36 Speaker 2: is going to see the entertainment and the other person

22:40 Speaker 2: is the entertainer, and they come together in the chorus

22:44 Speaker 2: where one says, you'll know what you are when I

22:49 Speaker 2: give you a name, and the other says, you'll know

22:52 Speaker 2: what you are when you give me a name, and

22:54 Speaker 2: it kind of goes back and forth, and then at

22:57 Speaker 2: the end it's like, you know, we're basically the same, right.

23:03 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. Oh. I want to

23:07 Speaker 1: ask you about the video too, because I love the

23:08 Speaker 1: video and I was reading that you worked with Hypno

23:12 Speaker 1: Doll as the director and editor and Alice Teepele as cinematographer,

23:17 Speaker 1: if I have that correct.

23:17 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Hypna Doll is a friend of mine who

23:22 Speaker 2: has been doing my artwork for the past couple albums

23:24 Speaker 2: and has done several videos for me, and we just

23:27 Speaker 2: relate really well. And she came up with the concept

23:31 Speaker 2: for the video of a band that kind of exists

23:33 Speaker 2: in several different time zone timelines. Yeah, and so, and

23:38 Speaker 2: then we had a whole bunch of our friends kind

23:41 Speaker 2: of join us at the end, like the band sort

23:43 Speaker 2: of explodes into a bunch of different identities. Yeah. But

23:47 Speaker 2: we did it. You know, we did it in my

23:49 Speaker 2: recording studio. You know, it was definitely not trying to

23:53 Speaker 2: look high budget, but it the editing is so good,

23:56 Speaker 2: has a great energy.

23:57 Speaker 1: It does it really does. No, It's I love it,

24:02 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, that's it's so important too. I think

24:07 Speaker 1: it's it to some people. It might sound odd to

24:09 Speaker 1: say this in the year twenty twenty five, but I

24:11 Speaker 1: think music videos are more important than they've ever been,

24:14 Speaker 1: you know, especially now. I mean MTV is apparently going

24:17 Speaker 1: away permanently, but they haven't played music videos in forever.

24:20 Speaker 1: But uh, I've noticed, and I don't know if you've

24:22 Speaker 1: noticed this. People outside the music industry, a lot of

24:24 Speaker 1: people have this perception that music video as an art

24:27 Speaker 1: form is dead, you know, because MTV gave up on it,

24:30 Speaker 1: you know, a couple decades ago. But in reality, because

24:33 Speaker 1: of social media, I think making videos and making a

24:36 Speaker 1: great video, it's a great video, even if it's low budget,

24:39 Speaker 1: it's I think it's fantastic, like like the video for Shame.

24:42 Speaker 1: It's so it's so important as a as a tool

24:46 Speaker 1: to get your you know, people. Still, it's always been

24:49 Speaker 1: the case, at least since I was a kid, and

24:51 Speaker 1: it's still the case today. People listen with their eyes

24:54 Speaker 1: just as much as they do with their.

24:55 Speaker 2: Ears, exactly. There's been a lot of notice that came

24:59 Speaker 2: from exerpting the video and putting up in little bites

25:03 Speaker 2: and then sharing the whole video, but just also just

25:07 Speaker 2: that it had a performance aspect involved all these other people.

25:11 Speaker 2: I mean, but there are other videos that Himnadala has

25:14 Speaker 2: done for me, like for the song Drown, that were

25:17 Speaker 2: more just full of images and stuff. So I mean,

25:20 Speaker 2: I think they're different. There's room for different ways to

25:23 Speaker 2: approach it, but I agree. I want to make some

25:24 Speaker 2: more videos myself for some of the for some more

25:27 Speaker 2: of the songs.

25:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt.

25:30 Speaker 2: So what's kind of.

25:33 Speaker 1: The future trajectory? Do you have another Is there another

25:36 Speaker 1: single that's going to be coming after Shame or what's

25:39 Speaker 1: what's kind of the short term or even the long

25:41 Speaker 1: term plan.

25:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, that there'll be one more single. I'm trying to

25:46 Speaker 2: decide which one it is. It might be Brutalless Monuments,

25:49 Speaker 2: or might be another completely different kind of song that's

25:52 Speaker 2: called Today that's on the album as well.

25:55 Speaker 1: Okay, but.

25:57 Speaker 2: I don't know. I've put together a really great band

26:00 Speaker 2: and we've started performing and we have another show this

26:04 Speaker 2: month I'm sorry, in December. It's almost December, and I

26:09 Speaker 2: just want to keep playing out and just bringing in

26:15 Speaker 2: new possibilities by putting myself out there and playing the music,

26:20 Speaker 2: and and you know, I'm sure at some point I'll

26:23 Speaker 2: have enough songs to do another release. I might not

26:27 Speaker 2: do full albums. I said that this time. Yeah, I

26:30 Speaker 2: did throughout full album. But I think you know a

26:33 Speaker 2: lot of times people just put on EPs now and

26:35 Speaker 2: they don't have to take us long between releases. That's

26:39 Speaker 2: intriguing to me. Yeah, but you know, I have a

26:43 Speaker 2: besides the next show I have as Charlie Eland for

26:47 Speaker 2: my band, I'm doing a Loser's Lounge performance at the

26:50 Speaker 2: beginning of December where they're doing Brian Wilson and the

26:54 Speaker 2: Beach Boys, and I'm singing a Beach Boys song I

26:56 Speaker 2: really love called All I Want to Do. And that's

27:00 Speaker 2: really exciting to sing. It's it's really nerve wracking just

27:04 Speaker 2: to sing one song in front of a crowded room,

27:06 Speaker 2: you know, with a great, great band, But it's it's

27:09 Speaker 2: it's taught me a lot about how to breathe and

27:14 Speaker 2: be in the moment, and it's really helped my own

27:16 Speaker 2: performing for for my music too. Oh.

27:19 Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent, Charlie. Where's the best place for people to

27:23 Speaker 1: go online to keep up with everything that you're doing?

27:26 Speaker 2: Well? Is it? Charlie naland website, and I E. L

27:29 Speaker 2: A and d yes and you know, I sell the

27:33 Speaker 2: music through band Camp, which isn't not all people know

27:37 Speaker 2: about that. I mean, of course I'm on streaming all

27:41 Speaker 2: the streaming platforms, but band Camp is a way you

27:44 Speaker 2: can stream and you can also buy the music as

27:47 Speaker 2: a digital release in any form that you like. Yeah,

27:51 Speaker 2: and I you know a lot of my artists friends

27:55 Speaker 2: work on that too, and we all kind of support

27:57 Speaker 2: each other on that. So check out band camp. I'm

27:59 Speaker 2: on band Camp, I'm on Apple Music and Spotify and

28:04 Speaker 2: all those places.

28:05 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely well, Charlie Neland thank you so much for

28:09 Speaker 1: joining us this morning. This has been fantastic. I'm actually

28:11 Speaker 1: gonna play I will have time, so I'm gonna play

28:13 Speaker 1: both Shame and then I'm gonna play Brutalist Monuments as well,

28:17 Speaker 1: but both both great tracks. But I really appreciate you

28:20 Speaker 1: joining us. This has been a fascinating discussion. I love

28:23 Speaker 1: your music, and hey, when the next single is ready

28:26 Speaker 1: to go, I definitely want to have you back on

28:28 Speaker 1: if you're amenable to that.

28:30 Speaker 2: I'd love that. Thank you so much, Matt. This has

28:32 Speaker 2: been a total pleasure.

28:33 Speaker 1: Wonderful, all right, Thanks Charlie, we'll let you go, and

28:35 Speaker 1: now I have a great have a great weekend.

28:37 Speaker 2: You too, all right, take care, bye bye bye bye.

28:40 Speaker 2: All right.

28:41 Speaker 1: That was Charlie Niland. And let's play these. I'm gonna

28:44 Speaker 1: play both of these. We're gonna play Shame. This is

28:46 Speaker 1: a great track. Yeah, pay attention to the lyrics and

28:48 Speaker 1: I appreciate I appreciate the song even more now that

28:50 Speaker 1: I know after talking to Charlie, now that I know

28:53 Speaker 1: exactly what's going on in these lyrics and the different characters.

28:57 Speaker 1: But yeah, this is this is interesting, so pay attention.

29:00 Speaker 1: But this is really good. This is Shame by Charlie Neeland.