Matt Connarton Unleashed: Kevin Hammer

0:00 We're gonna bring in a we have a great guest on via Skype. We're gonna bring in in just a moment. But if you'd like to enter the discussion that we're about to have, six ZO three two five six z seven is a studio line six ZO three two five six zoo seven. You can also text me at six one seven nine one seven four four seven six. I'm on social media at Matt Connerton. You can email me Matt at Matt Connerton dot com. You can interact endo Pine in the Facebook live chat. But the best thing to do so that we can hear and enjoy your Dulca tones is to give us a call at six zoo three two five six zoo seven.

0:34 And we have Kevin Hammer via Skype. Kevin are you there? Yes, I am hello, welcome to the show. Glad, glad to be here. I just want to check and you hear me clearly? Yeah, yeah, absolutely can hear me. Okay, a bit choppy, a bit staticky, but I can make I can make everything out everywhere just saying okay, good good. Yeah. Technology will will not always be exactly what we wanted to be, that's for sure, absolutely, but uh yeah yesterday, we had a band on all the way from Germany called Factory of Art and uh, you know, when when you're getting transcontinental, it can be especially a challenging and they were skyping in, but they had a little bit of a problem connecting.

1:16 You know. Eventually it worked, but I had to had to give it a few shots. But where where are you? Are you in Schenectady in New York? Yes, yep, I do reside in Schenectady, New York. Okay, it's not that far from the capitol Albany, New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have some I have some family in New York State. Spend some time there as a kid, because I haven't been there in a while, well at least not not in terms of spending any real time there. But um my, uh, my dad's second wife, her family is in I don't know, if you know Frankfurt.

1:50 It's uh kind of near uh, I guess it's kind of near Utica. Um, yeah, I'm aware of the Frankfurt area absolutely. Okay, Yeah, it's kind of funny in that area, you've got all those you know, they don't even really call them towns, they call them village villages like Frankfurt and Ilien and and it's hard to tell where one ends and and and another one begins. It's they're kind of like a like one city sort of match together. But it's really like a series of neighborhoods. It's interesting. But um, it's funny.

2:16 Yeah, it's it is funny up here. I actually grew up in a community where the Amish had posts to tie up their horses. So really, no kidding in New York or were you yes? Oh wow? I was born and raised in Scaria, Montgomery Counties in New York State. Uh. And it's funny because most people when you say you're from New York, they go to the city. But I grew up in small town, rural New York. Like I said that, we had an Amish community. Uh, you know, Mennonites, you know, we we had all that out there. And like I said, our bank, our post you know, the post office, our grocery store, they all had posts to um tie up their horses.

2:55 In fact, they put in a brand new a few years ago. They put in a new sign in the center of town. Uh buggy parking, No kidding, Oh yep, Oh that's cool. That's interesting, interesting, um you ever see that that that show, Amish Mafia. I think it was actually set in Pennsylvania. Did you ever see that? I think it was on the Learning Channel. No, I'm aware that it exists, but no I have I have actually never seen a full episode. I saw a trailer for it once and I found it very amusing. It's a it's a trip.

3:27 I just I know someone actually someone who claims to be a real New Yorker from from the city who uh will often brag about the time that he interviewed Lebanon Levi from Amish Mafia, and it's kind of like, wow, that's uh quite the brag there. But uh, yeah, that that that show. I have seen the show. It's it's kind of a trip. But now, what is your current satis in terms of are you a candidate or do you currently hold office? Well, I I am currently a candidate. Um I will I'm not going to speak so much to the uh you know, the race right now.

4:04 My campaign right now, we're the Democrats. I am a Republican. The Democrats have their primaries, their primary coming up. Uh you know, so we're just reaching out to the community right now, still knocking on doors, getting getting our names out there. I ran in twenty twenty one for city council and I'm running again, Okay in Schenectady. Yep, in Schenectady. Gotcha. Now, have you held office before or if you run, did you run for office prior to twenty twenty one. No, twenty twenty one was my first time entering politics in that in that fashion.

4:41 Prior to that, I had been involved more on the activist side since probably around college. Okay, And now you came to us by way of our friend Billy Painter, or Bad Billy as he is as this his online persona. Although I personally I don't know what you think, Kevin, I think he should just use his real name. I think Billy Painter is a cool name. I don't know why. I just like the way it sounds. But uh, but yeah, he had he had recommended, and I'm glad he connected us, and I did. I didn't get a chance to see quite the whole thing, but I did watch most of um your interview, Billy's interview with you, I should say, on Outlaw Radio and very interesting and uh and you know we had talked via messenger and you had mentioned, um, you know, you're a Republican, but you you know, you like to be able to discuss things with people outside of the echo chamber, and um, you know, one of the things that I try to do with this show, and this is part of what it's part of what made you interesting as a guest, and why I think Billy suggested you come on is you know, I, um, and I'm an independent, but I would probably best describe my politics.

5:48 And when I go with this particular description, people seem to agree with me. I'm center left, but with a heavy dose of libertarian in some ways too. But I really like talking to um, you know, I I don't personally enjoy having discussions that are strictly you know, ideological, the sort of cable news to people yelling at each other. You know, I like to dig deeper, and I like talking to people whom uh you know. I mean, of course, it's nice to talk to people with whom I agree. It's also nice to talk to people with whom I disagree and and have a real discussion and an exchange of ideas and and uh, my impression both from Billy and what you had said on Messenger is that you're very open to that as well, and that and that you like to address things outside the echo chamber.

6:31 So um, so, I think that's very cool, and I'm very interested in so a couple of things about you that are that are interesting. Also in addition to that that I wanted to ask you about. UM One is I would like to hear your story about how Billy described you as a walk away from the Democratic Party and you you alluded to it a moment ago as well,

6:53 um that you used to be a Democrat. And it's interesting you you said something interesting in your conversation with Billy on his show. You were talking about how you really kind of feel more like an independent. But you know the way the system works in New York. You know, if you want to vote, or I suppose if you want to be a candidate in your case, because you're an active candidates. You know, you're an active candidate. Independence generally don't win, so you know, you almost you almost have to pick a side, um in that sense.

7:19 But I do want to ask you more about all of that, your your journey and and and how you've changed politically or if you have changed. You know, sometimes people will say regardless of which party they left, you know, I hear people say, well, the party didn't you know, I didn't leave the party, the party left me. But I'm curious to hear more about that. The other thing that's that's interesting about you is, um, so you are, and it's right on on the website there that I was looking at. You know, you're you're openly gay and in a party that I think.

7:52 I think there's a perception and you might refute this today. I don't know, or it might be a concern. I'm curious to hear you address this, But there is a perception that the Republican Party today has kind of taken an anti LGBTQ bent or. But then again, I also realize you're in New York and the Republican Party of New York State is not the same as say no disrespect to the South, but the Republican Party of Alabama. You know, So maybe maybe maybe where you are, and I suspect this is the case, but I'll be interested to hear you address this.

8:30 Maybe where you are it just doesn't matter. I mean, I know George Santos is an openly gay Republican allegedly. Of course, you don't know whether you can believe anything anything he says. But he is an openly gay Republican from New York, and nobody seems to care that he's gay. So everyone's very interested in whether he's actually telling the truth about anything, But nobody seems to care that he's gay. So so, you know, in the Northeast, maybe it's just not an issue. I don't know, but i'd be curious to get your perspect active on that.

9:00 But um, but yeah, any any of that that you want to address. I know I threw a lot at you at once, but you're I'm very curious to learn more about you. And um, your conversation with Billy left me with a lot of questions. So as you can tell, so we're we're oh no, absolutely, yeah, a lot of a lot of ground at me. Yeah. Um, you know where to start on the map. Um, no, well, it is true. I was once I was registered Democrat, identified actually self identified as a leftist at one point. You know, I was involved as an activist more during the time when s JW was more commonly used social justice warrior back back in those don't you don't really hear that anymore?

9:49 Um. I had a journey which um I mean, there was a lot involved in it, and I came to embrace more my conservative values. Now. Part of that journey, um, was indeed the fact, as you said, many people say I didn't leave the party, the party left me. The Democratic Party went further to the left. That's true. However, at around the same time, I was also connecting to some more of my conservative root values that had that had always been there. So it really it really was a mixture. UM. I can't I can't say that, you know now, I you know, identifying as a conservative and speaking to conservative values, I can't say that they weren't there at all.

10:35 Right, they were there even when I was more on the left. It's just how my interactions went on the left ultimately led to me embracing more of those conservative values, um, and ultimately rejecting a lot of the ideology that I saw on the rise on the left. Now, you it is, it is true that, um. In regards I I like to say today that I prefer to discuss values, not party. Yes, and that really has become more and more of my focus. Not too long ago, I was having a discussion with two gentlemen about issues locally and as when we got done with our conversation.

11:19 You know, I was expressing my opinion. I was talking about specific issues. And when we got done with the conversation and the one guy left, the other guy, who happens to be a Republican, a conservative like myself, he goes, Wow, he goes, that was impressive, he goes. Usually, when me and the other guy try to you know, me and my other friend try to talk to him, you know, he's hard Democrat and he will yell at us, get frustrated with us and all that. And I go, I understand that, and I've had that experience as well.

11:48 But did you notice something in our conversation. Not once did I mention party affiliation during this entire conversation. I just spoke about the issues in my personal values, which ye, Well, that allowed us to have a better connection. Yeah. Uh, that makes sense because you uh, when you had that conversation with Billy on his show, you were talking about that there's a moment, uh that I and I wanted to kind of mention this to you, and and I liked what you had to say. There's a moment where you gave him, you offered him some advice on you know, he's he's Uh.

12:26 He was talking about his daughter and a political sort of a political conversation interaction that he had had with his daughter. And you said to Billy, can I give you some advice and the advice that you gave him? And I I won't, uh, I'm sure I won't get it out as eloquently as you put it, because I really liked what you had to say. But your suggestion was, you know, start with you know, don't don't talk about political party with your daughter, talk about specific issues and uh and and and just stick to that.

12:56 Um and I. I really, again, the way you said it was very very good. I can't remember exactly how you put it, but it really resonated with me because, you know, I feel like we live in a world where people are so hyper focused on party identification and ideology that there's no room to even um express anything outside of what's expected to you, for example, on social media if you are on either left or right, you know, if you're if you're a Republican and uh and and you say, well, you know, I'm a Republican.

13:36 But here's something that I do give President Biden credit for. I think he's right on you know, maybe you know the way he's supplied weapons to Ukraine or whatever, if that's something you happen to agree with them on. If you if you give Biden credit for anything as a Republican, you'll get dog piled. You'll get called a rhino. You know, you'll get called, I don't know, a socialist whatever it is, right. Uh. And and in the inverse, if you're a Democrat and you say, well, you know, I don't like Trump, but I did agree with him on the debt ceiling.

14:06 That was something that he got right, Uh, you'll get dogpiled by your your fellow Democrats and it's like, how can you dare say anything good about Trump? And so uh it's and and that just perpetuates you know, we we we live in a world where it's like you've really you're expected to be locked in on one side or the other. And so I think your approach is smart. Uh. You know, talk about the you know, forget about the political identification. Uh, start with the issues and and and go from there, because at the end of the day, especially when you're talking about local things, UM, I think there's a lot of room for agreement.

14:47 You know, if you're talking about if you're running for city council or something like that. I think there's probably a lot more room for agreement and less room for ideology, uh than than there isn't on a broader scale anyway. So I think the way you approach it and the way you think about it, I think makes a lot of sense. We've gotten We've gotten to a point where if you're talking about a politician, whether they be Democrat, Republican, whatever they may be, and you are on that opposite end of the political spectrum, at least that's your party affiliation, and you do speak kindly to them in any way, you do get that attack.

15:24 Unfortunately, we are that polarized, although I would say that we're polarized in regards to what the media highlights, in regards to what the politicians highlight, but not so much when it comes to day today Americans, every day americans who I feel actually can have more conversations, and I know in fact we can because I've taken part in those conversations. It's more on the social media where I get the conflict, but in person, I've had in depth conversations with people on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

15:54 Sure, we did not agree, but we remain civil, absolutely, and I think in part that's because we and I was I had a friend once kind of put it this way. He was saying, you know, it's it's kind of like we're at this point. You know, say there was a historical a dictator, a monstrous dictator, right, and that dictator happened to say, um, puppies are cute. Well, after that point, no one could ever say puppies are cute because this dictator said it, right, right, So no one, no one can say puppies are cute now.

16:29 Um, you know. So it's it's very interesting that we have gotten into that, and it's it does exist on both sides of the aisle, all across the political spectrum. Now, for me personally, it's interesting because I look back to my roots and where I came from. One of the things I actually feel very fortunate in regards to is that I did not have very political parents. Um, my parents never discussed voting with me. To be honest, some people may not look fondly upon that, um, you know, for various reasons, but it's just not who my parents were.

17:03 And I remember once asking them about voting and both my parents had the same view. Why bother they're all crooked anyways, as across the board, and that's a common view actually. But for me, especially when I entered UM College and I started looking at the world around me, I realized something that was true, whether I liked it or not. Um. You know, there's the saying that you don't have to believe in the devil. All that matters is the devil believes in you. And that's true when it comes to politics.

17:34 You can say you don't care about politics. You can say that you don't you don't care, you know, it doesn't impact your life, but that's just not true. I had a conversation with a friend who lives in a more rural area and he was telling me earlier, he had been telling me in the week about he was putting in a duck pond and you know, in a coupe for the ducks and all that stuff. And then later on he was telling me how politics doesn't impact his life, you know, so he just doesn't want anything to do with it.

18:02 And I remembered back to our earlier conversation and I asked him, bowing the answer probably, I said, I have a question you think politics doesn't impact your life. I got a question, did you check all the zoning laws and regulations when you put in that pond and you put in that coup, because if you did not follow them to the te those were passed. Those rules were passed by government, by local government. So yes, it does. And politics impacts us from the moment we are born and before we go we were born.

18:30 You know, if you're born in a hospital, there are regulations, policies at the hospital has to follow that have been implemented by government. Government does impact us from womb to tomb, and even after the tomb, to be honest, because they can pick up, you know, semties. So I mean politics does impact you, whether you like it or not. Someone saying to that that realization. When I entered college, I got involved, and at the time it was more on the left. I was. Actually I was an activist. I was a co founder of one of the GFAs at my college, at the first college I went to, and I really did fall into more with the left, and for me, that did end up eventually taking more of an extreme turn at one point to where I did cut out family over politics.

19:19 The one thing I never did. I never told anyone they didn't have a right to speak. This is where I honestly started to change for me is when I actually got that treatment in return, and I'm actually thankful that I did. To be honest, I started to question things on the left at the time. And like I said, I don't say this to say that everyone who has left or leaning has these personality traits or takes part in this behavior. Of course, I'm speaking to the experience I had during my journey from the left to the right.

19:56 And you know, and I've met I've met people on the who are very big on If you don't have this specific view, then you're cut off right, nothing to do with you. But for me, I experienced it largely on the left and still do to this day. Um what it happened was, I think, as I always I always kind of say, I think, what really, um, ultimately h was going to result in my conflict with the left was that I'm very stubborn and I don't respond well to people trying to put me in my place. I'm someone who always asked questions.

20:34 I wasn't the child who easily accepted when my parents told me something. I wasn't the child to really accept because I said so. I was the child who would ask why, yeah, And I view that as important. You tell a child not to touch a burning stove, why not explain to them why they shouldn't touch the hot stove because they could get hurt. Instead of just saying because I said so, right, they're more likely to rebel against that and actually touched the stove and get and get burnt. But if you explain to them why, you're gonna probably have a different result.

21:10 I mean, they could still do it, you know, but but you're probably gonna at least they're gonna have a better understanding. And I really had that personality from the time I was very young. Trust me, it frustrated my mother at times, but my mother let me. Let my mother understood where my logic was was going. And ultimately, I think this personality trait is what eventually caused me to conflict with the left as it moved further and further to the left. Because when I entered the left, there was a lot of things that were preached that I absolutely believed in and still do actually believe into this day.

21:48 It's just when I noticed a lot of double standards and hypocrisy on the rise. That was when I started to conflict, because I started to ask more questions. Yeah, and I do have a few examples of those that I found, um where I was starting to like, For example, uh, you know, there was this, uh we would say, all right, you shouldn't judge someone by the color of their skin. Absolutely, absolutely, you shouldn't. That's wrong. That's racist. To have a prejudice against someone based on the color of their skin.

22:20 That is racism. That is the definition of racism. Right. It's wrong to judge someone's entire character based on their sex. Absolutely absolutely agreed with that, and I still agree with that deeply. It's wrong to judge someone hate someone based on their sexual orientation, and you know, in regards homosexuality heterosexution, I still I still believe that. However, I noticed that there became more and more among my friends this double standard, meaning they believed that racism only went one way, sexism only one way, hating someone based on sexual orientation only went went only went one way, and that if you were the oppressed quote unquote demographic, you had every right to treat other people however you wanted based on these characteristics because you were the oppressed, and that just didn't sit right with me.

23:14 I think that it's just as wrong for me to attack a heterosexual man for being heterosexual, to call him some kind of name a slur related to that, as it would be for him to call me a slur in regards to my sexual orientation. I saw that as just as wrong. But unfortunately on the progressive left right now, they don't see that, as they see one is wrong but not the other. Um, but where were these Were there expert personal experiences that you had where this came up? Because I don't, I don't. I mean, well, first of all, let me just say so, I fundamentally agree with you.

23:52 I mean, any anybody, uh, you know, being prejudiced against anyone is as a form of prejudice. Like I'm not a big fan of the term uh and you might agree I'm not a big fan of the term reverse racism. I think, yeah, yeah, um, But but I am I am curious. So uh, I mean, were there personal experiences that you were having or did something happen to you online where where you began to notice because I don't feel like I I see, while I agree with you, Um, in principle, I haven't. Granted, I don't really engage much online.

24:32 Uh in politics, I kind of save it all for the show. Um, but I I so I agree with you in principle, but it's not something I've seen. Like, I can't, off the top of my head think of a lot of examples of straight people being attacked for for being straight. I'm not sure. So I'm just can you clarify that a little bit. I'm just curious where where you were running into that, and and and if you can walk I guess through how you responded to that when you encountered it, and how that drew you to to see hypocrisy and double standards and so forth.

25:11 Well, let me, I guess. Let me explain because I know the perspective you're coming from. In my personal life. When I say I was an activist, well I may not have, you know, been high up there and gotten a lot of attention. I was very much involved in activism, and I did end up with friends who went further and further to left, like not just people on social media, people in my circle of friends who, for example, over a political disagreement one friend I had, he did try to get someone fired from their job.

25:40 He t but he docks them like I knew people who honestly were at that level of encouraging people to cut off family even divorce their spouses over political disagreements. Like my circle of friends was hard went hard left. So it's an It wasn't even social media, which, don't get me wrong, I experienced that on social media, of course. Yeah, I was part of a law of left leaning political groups and chats and everything like that. But I had people in my life, people I had known for years, who were also of this mentality and actually took part in these actions.

26:17 And like when I had the falling out with my family member over politics, a lot of my friends encouraged me to cut her out of my life and never talk to her again. And this was someone who is my baby cousin. I'm about I'm all about four years older than her, and I was there when she was born and we had a falling out over politics. And at the time, I was much more extreme and much more of you know that you gotta agree with me on this or else I don't want to talk to you. And I was surrounded by people who had that same mentality and encouraged that mentality in me.

26:57 Now, I still made the decision. I'm not. No one held a gun to my head or anything. Not to say that someone want to do that these days, it seems like some might, but no, I still made that decision. So I still take responsibility for my actions there. I'm not going to sit here and claim that I was completely helpless. They I was. I was forced to, you know, by threat of my life or anything. I ultimately was the one that made those decisions. But all so, that was my circle of friends. Are just to clarify, because I actually marched on Washington, DC.

27:30 I protested outside my capital. I went to organizational meetings, I helped organize protests, I spoke at protests. I was deeply involved on in regards to the activity locally when it came to the left. Yeah, yeah, I will. Actually, uh, I want to kind of retract and rephrase something I said when you mentioned when you mentioned specifically people trying to get people fired from their jobs or because of uh maybe not uh you know, whatever it is, their their position or something. I have seen examples of that.

28:10 Actually, so I I was not. I'm realizing now I'm because as you're talking. I'm thinking of specific things, you know where UM. It kind of reminds me of the what what Candice Owens talked about. Although in in I don't believe her story, I do believe your story because I've seen examples of what you're talking about. I have, and it's starting to come back to me. Candace. I don't. I don't. I don't know how you feel about her. I don't believe her. But that's a separate conversation. But I but I know what you're saying, and it's it's, UM, yeah, if if somebody, um, you know, somebody uh does something that that someone perceives as uh and and they may be right in their perception that it's prejudiced or something, and then they go and they try to get that person fired from their job.

28:57 Uh that type of thing. Uh. Yeah, I don't like to see that either. I think I think people do go much too far with that or the dock singe that goes on. And so I understand, uh, you're being repelled by that. Um. I've never I've never been an activist in that way, so I've not experienced that. But I've never been in that position either. But I have seen that kind of thing happen, Kevin, So I do get where you're coming from on that, and let me let me just because you ask for specific examples. So, um, there were specific examples, especially around twenty sixteen going into twenty seventeen, because obviously that's when things really heated up.

29:39 Yeah, and that was when you know, I cut out a family member. But then I started to really question myself on that. I I, over politics, was going to cut out someone that I had known literally since the day she was born. Yeah, over over politics. I had a falling out out with well, my in laws event you know, eventually for a little bit. And you know, I don't regret Some people might say they regret these falling out, these falling outs, I don't because I stepped back and reflected on them, and and more I became critical of myself.

30:16 What could I have done differently? What could I have said differently? Yeah, and some of them, some of the things that happened personally where I actually became a target in my circle of friends, UM started around that time. So I don't know if you recall, um, when a group of four um young individuals who happened to be black kidnapped a young UM man with mental health issues and tortured him and recorded it.

30:47 I you know, and we're and we're calling and we're using racial slurs and you know, uh, you know, towards towards white's. During that, I remember in my group of friends saying, oh, okay, here's an act of racism. Just as we've called out acts of racism against other other demographics, other racial demographics, here's an act of racism that we should call out as well. Like I said, in my mind, racism is racism and it's wrong and we should call out. But when I went to call that out, people in my own circle of friends said, no, you can't do that.

31:20 That's not racism. Was that a violent act? Yes? Was that prejudice yes? And I'm like prejudices in the definition of racism, But you know, I started getting push pushed back with that. UM. Another thing that that happened to me is I had made a lot of posts critical of Christianity in regards to well the LGBT community. UM, and I had you know, I had made a number of posting friends had my friends in my closed circle, they had liked and shared them. Well, I made a similar post, except this post, I was being critical of Islam in regards to how it has, how that how that really is treated homosexuals and other people from the community over over our span of years, and I was told I couldn't, I should take down that post because my posts against Christianity were fine, but my posts being critical of Islam were wrong because in the context of America, we're talking about minority demographic so I'm punching down and this just didn't make sense to me.

32:27 I realized what came. The biggest issue I had was inconsistency and logic. If you have a specific set of values and you don't apply them equally across the board, I have to question you. I have to question if you can and then you don't acknowledge the double standards, the hypocrisy at play in your own mind. Don't get me wrong. We all have our double standards, right, like when it comes to policy, like there are things that yes, children shouldn't do, but adults can. Right. That's that's one case where absolutely into me, that's that's legitimate.

33:03 I stand by that. But this was very different. And more and more I started speaking on issues and getting told to be quiet by those in my circle of friends, to the point where I was actually removed from several UH messaging groups um that I had been part of on social media where I actually knew the people in person. And then one individual was amusing the one that tried to get a guy fired from his job. There was a protest locally in front of in front of my police station. Actually, and this I had already been started being very open about my criticisms of the left, and I had starting I had started to embrace more of my conservative values in part as a result of that, started reflecting more upon who I really am, really soul searching.

33:53 But during that time I hadn't heard from him as much. Yea, I happened to go to that protest him there, he kind of looked at me, then looked away, and someone I had been at his house. I had celebrated with him, celebrated birthdays, like really, we had hung out, and sure enough I went to look him up on social media. Not only had he unfriended me on social media, he had blocked me as well. Yeah, so this is what started to happen. And I think one big thing issue for me was my unwavering belief in free speech no matter what.

34:28 Even my days when I was the furthest to the left I had ever gotten. I still while I might cut people out, I might have cut people out, I still didn't believe that they should be silenced, right. I still believed that they had a right to speak to their values, to what they believed, even if their values hurt my feelings. I just wanted to associate with them if it hurt my feelings. I believed that to my core and I still do so. When a number of my friends started taking those acts of well, we're gonna work to get people fired, We're gonna even you know docs, people release their information, yeah, and even sometimes go after family members, all because people were just speaking their values.

35:12 That for me was like, I'm done. I have to step away from this. And that was when my journey really started to where I am today. Yeah. Yeah, M no, I can. I can understand all of that, and now I'm curious the other aspect that I'm really interested in it. So, um, is my theory correct, Kevin, that you, as a as an openly gay man in the Republican Party in the state of New York, probably not an issue, or have you or have you run in any have you run in any problems with that where where maybe some maybe somebody just uh gives you a hard time.

35:50 Well, I'm not someone who tries to um blind myself to reality or tries to deny truth. Um. Of course, the Republican Party party has not had a history that has been great with individuals who, like myself, are gay. Right, Yeah, yeah, that's that's a fact. Then again, it wasn't too long ago that you had Biden up there talking about marriage being between a man and a woman. So but furthermore, I want, I want to um, I put it this way now with people, because people do say to me, um, how can you vote this way?

36:23 How can you have these values when the party that you're a part of, um or you know, have had, has had this history when it comes to the LGBT community, Well, I'm like, well, first of all, there's a great deal in the LGBT community that I stand firmly against what I see, especially in the current lgbt Q all the way to zum a community that I just I absolutely am adamantly against. So first of all, there's that, And second of all, even if let's say the Republican party today put out a platform that all homosexuals should be put to death.

37:04 Right, even if that were to happen today, my values on freedom of speech, the first Amendment would be the same, The Second Amendment would be the same, Abortion would be the same, Border issues would be the same. I would still have these values. So would I vote for a politician that wanted me put to death? No, But I would vote for a politician that supported, that fought for the values that I preach. And yes, they happen to be conservative and Republican. And that's just the fact. So when people try to bring up the history, I'm like, well, that's also the point.

37:46 It's history, right, yea, because we can spend all day going down history, going down that road as to who did what and who did when? I mean, do you want to go back to segregation? Do you want to go back to Democratic Party? I mean, how far do you want to take this? Well? Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that. But what I'm curious though, Kevin, is like, do you get any pushback, you know, you're a candidate for office as a Republican, do you get any pushback in your own party in New York? Because because if if you look at the Republican Party's history with say, for example, marriage equality.

38:20 Um you know, obviously there are Republicans. Well I'll just give you just a quick example. So here in New Hampshire, we were actually ahead of the curve on marriage equality because um and uh Jenny was was serving in the in the House, uh, in the legislature here uh in New Hampshire at the time. But um so uh there there were a large contingent of Republicans in New Hampshire who voted in favor of marriage equality and then voted against repealing it when some Republicans tried to repeal it in the next term.

38:52 So so we were ahead of the curve. But part of what contributed to that was was, you know, some Republicans who said, no, we we we, you know, let's let's go ahead and let's go ahead and do this. Uh. Not not all of them, of course, plenty of them opposed it as well, but um and there there are certainly Republicans who who bristle at the idea of undoing that. For example, um so, um so, there are a lot of Republicans who are pro marriage equality. But I'm just wondering, I mean, do you do you run into any any fellow Republicans or Republicans you've campaigned with, for example, who who have any issue.

39:27 Again, I wouldn't think that it would be a problem in in New York, not to you know, bring Northeastern elitism into it. But you know we can We're both Northeasterners. We can do that. Um. Whereas you know, if you were if you were running for city council in Alabama or Mississippi or Oklahoma, you know, as a Republican, you you might very well, uh, you know, you might run into some trouble. But I'm wondering have you had any of that here or has it? Has that part been pretty smooth because to your credit, you don't try to hide it.

40:06 Um. You know again the website I was looking at, you know, you could try to slide one by and refer to your partner on that website, but you don't. You refer to him as your husband. If you had said partner and captain ambiguous you might foolsome people, but you're not trying to fool anybody, which I really respect you for. Um. Because of the position that you're in, no one could blame you if you did try to sneak one by you know what I mean? So and so, so it's it's so it's interesting. I guess, first of all, it's a matter of my approach, right, Yeah, um is to me.

40:39 To me, there's nothing special in that I that I do reference my husband in my description. I've seen plenty of profiles where you know, a male candidate will say my wife in regards to explaining why he's running for office, my wife, my family. I'm running because I want my family to have to live in a safety for a community. And that's the thing is first of all, I want to stress I am not a gay candidate. I am not a gay Republican. I am a Republican candidate who happens to be gay, who happens to be a homosexual.

41:13 So gay is not the priority of my identity. Yeah, It's not something I put any work into. It's something I just am. So that's also the idea of taking pride in that. To me, one of the things is taking pride in an identity that you didn't work for. That's where you get into narcissism and you get into more entitlements. So for me, when I when I go to speak to a Republican on the street or not. You know, I knock on their door. I don't introduce myself as HI, I'm Kevin the homosexual. I introduced myself as HI.

41:50 My name is Kevin Hammer. I'm running for city council. These are the issues that I'm focusing on, and that's where the conversation is. Have I had Have I interacted with any pushback? Yeah, I've interact But to me, it's no different. So so I have out with Republicans, uh I had. I do have an example of one Republican who couldn't get past the fact that I happened to be a homosexual man. Um But at the same time, I have people on the left who can't get past the fact that I'm a homosexual who's a Republican.

42:27 So I witnessed it on both sides. Now, when request some marriage equality specifically, um I was involved as an activist during that time. I actually marched on Washington, DC for the Equality March in two thousand and nine. Um So, yeah, yes, it was two thousand and nine. I believe, um So, I was involved, you know, in that. But to be honest, my view even on that to a degree has changed. In regards to what I why I personally was was fighting for was is I wanted legal protections. I wanted to be able to have to live my life with a man that I fell in love with and not have to worry about my family or anyone else coming in during certain times, say I was injured in the hospital, I didn't want to worry about my family coming in and laying claim to me.

43:19 I didn't want to worry about if I were to pass away my spouse, you know, being able to inherit what I leave him in my will. I didn't want to worry about that. Now, a lot of people say, well, you could still follow those you know, the legal processes and leave. The problem is is that there was a history of it when we didn't have those legal protections that even if someone said okay, I'm going to sign off that this person makes all medical decisions for me if I'm incapacitated, or that my items go to this families would often come in and there was a history of this and challenge it on the basis of morality and even say well, we feel that our relative was brainwashed into this lifestyle and therefore we want, you know, we want custody.

44:06 We want a right to him to make the decisions about his health, or we want to write to his estate. And if a judge, if a judge's morality was in line with that family. Quite often it didn't matter if there was a will, it didn't matter, you know, if anything was on paper, the judge would go with that. So for me, it wasn't about even the word marriage. I just wanted security in the fact that there were legal protections for me and the man that I love. Yeah, that's a big that's a big part of why um civil unions and my view that wasn't enough.

44:39 You know, that was sort of the compromise when we when when civil unions came in, and it was like, well but but as you know, some of the examples that you gave are reasons why even civil unions didn't quite hold up. And that's that's one of the reasons why it was. It was so important in my view. You know, like I said, I've always been pro marriage equality. But Kevin, we are. You've been very generous with your time. We're already it's about ten minutes of five, so we'll we'll let you go. I know, you got to get to get to dinner and so forth, but not to put you on the spot, but I would like to do this again soon because I've really enjoyed the conversation and I feel like we barely scratched the surface, and uh, you know, you're an interesting guy.

45:21 So I do hope we can do this again soon. But before we let you go, please, is there anything that we should know for anyone who might be listening online in your area, where where they should go to learn more about your campaign or social media or anything you want to make sure our listeners know about, or anything that you're that you might be involved in online politically or otherwise that people should know about. Well, I mean forum in regards to my campaign where you can learn more about me and also my other amazing candidates were running alongside me.

45:54 I really do have some great people surrounding me. You on Facebook, you can go to your GOP candidates for Schenectady City Council. It is actually the same on Twitter. Um there you can find links to our website and just just learn more about us. But ultimately, I guess what I want to leave people with is just to really work on avoiding the echo chambers that we have today in our in our society, regardless of whether they are on the right or the left. Echo chambers, I truly believe are one of the greatest dangers in our society today.

46:33 We Once you get trapped in them, you get this mentality to actually hate the other side. Yes, And the scary thing about that is once you convince yourself to hate someone, to hate a group of people, history shows us that eventually you can justify doing the most horrific things to those individuals. So get out of your echo chambers. If you're in it, think about your Think about your life for a moment. Say do I have a friend, not an acquaintance. Do I have a friend or someone that I can have deeper conversations with who's of a different perspective on this issue or that issue, or a different political affiliation.

47:14 And do we have these conversations. If not, work on changing that, work on making connections, because, like I said, it's it's the politicians, it's the media, it's the hardcore activists that are creating this view that we are so divided that we can't stand each other. But on the streets, I feel that we very much still can have conversations. Oh yeah, and people treat each other differently in person than they do on social media anyway. Absolutely. Yeah. So by the way, I would love to come back on I'm very much enjoying this conversation in your right over all the topics in general, we've just barely scratched the surface.

47:59 Yeah, because I've definitely had an interesting journey, uh from from left to right and my walk away experience as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Well we will we'll set something up, Jenny, Jenny will uh connect with you on that and uh and and we'll make it happen because I've enjoyed this very much. All right, Kevin Hammer, thank you again so much for joining us today, and uh we will talk soon. Let's have a good day, all right you two, bye bye, all right, very good. That was Kevin Hammer, a Republican from Schenectady, New York.

48:32 He is on the ballot for uh all right, well I don't know if there's a ballot yet, but he's running for city council uh there in Schenectady, and uh yeah, and I you know, I really like what he had to say about, you know, getting out of the echo chambers, because that's and that's part of the reason why I wanted to talk with him today is because that's something that we talk about a lot on this show, you know, and I really believe that, uh you know. In fact, we were talking just the other day about algorithms, you know, and how on social media, whether it be YouTube or Facebook or whatever it is, you're you're actively served up content that matches what you've already looked at, what you've already absorbed.

49:09 So you're constantly being fed information that reinforces what you already think. And that's good in one sense, right from a customer service standpoint, because you want to you want to be suggested, so to speak, products or services or content that you are going to be interested in. So you know, it's no different than on social media in terms of content. It's no different from when say you're shopping on Amazon. You want to be presented with products that somehow align with things that you've previously purchased or things that you've previously looked at.

49:52 So that all makes sense. So the algorithms aren't necessary evil, but the evil part in the necessary evil is that, yeah, it does reinforce these echo chambers that we all get trapped in and that we're vulnerable too, and if you can have constructive intellectual discussions outside of that and outside of being you know, trapped in an ideology. And you know, Kevin put it very well when he said, what happens is that gets reinforced to the point where people who disagree with each other begin to hate each other.

50:28 And that's the worst part, and a lot of terrible things become justified because of that hatred. So yeah, so there you go. But like I said, I feel like we barely scratched the surface with Kevin, so we will do that again soon