Daniel Milligan of The Joy Thieves | Matt Connnarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: That's a banger. I love that. That is called No Anchor. The band is The Joy Thieves, and the album is called Apocalypse Pending, and we've got let me bring that up here. We've got Dan Milligan from The Joy Thieves here with us via Microsoft Teams. Hello.

0:13 Speaker 2: Dan, Hey there, great, Thanks so much for having me.

0:16 Speaker 1: I appreciate it absolutely. I'm really excited to talk to you because I love that track. I love everything. Of course you sent us the whole album. I was into the whole thing. It's really really good and I love the project. But I almost don't know how to describe it. It's like it's a supergroup, but it's really more like a super collective, right, because you've got a lot of people involved in this, but they're all come with some pretty impressive resumes.

0:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, as of now, we've been going for maybe like seven or eight years, and I think there's over eighty people who've been involved now from bands from all over the world. So yeah, it is, I guess, like a supergroup, but it involves people not just here in Chicago where I am, but all over the planet.

0:56 Speaker 1: How do you, I mean, how do you manage all of that? Because you're the what your role in this? You're the You're the producer, right, and I assume you you play some things too, or what is your role here? And how did you? Are you the progenitor of the joy Thieves? Did you start this project?

1:12 Speaker 2: Yes, I sure did. I started it just by myself, and it slowly grew over time. So I'm a professional drummer, so I do all the drumming on the tracks for the most part, and then myself and my production partner do all the mixing as well as the You know, when you have this many members, everyone's sending you tracks from all over the place. Someone's got to sit through all those things and make some decisions in the studio and do the production stuff. So that's what I do as well.

1:36 Speaker 1: Is this what you had intended it to be when you started it? Did you imagine it growing to this proportion in terms of the involvement of all these people?

1:45 Speaker 2: Never, never, ever, in a million years, did I think it would be anything like this when it When it first started, it was literally just I was writing music in my home studio for myself. Yeah, that's all there was. It slowly started to grow after that, and then it started to rapidly grow after that. So I mean, I think on our first album there was maybe thirty people, and now, like I said, there's over eighty contributors, So that's incredible.

2:08 Speaker 1: And how did you come to work with all these people? I mean, obviously I'm asking a very broad question because I'm sure every story, you know, every interaction with every person is different. Some of these people are probably people you've worked with before, you know very well. Some maybe you've never met, but you email tracks back and forth or dropbox tracks back and forth, because we live in an era where you can do that. But I mean, how did you pull all these people into this project?

2:33 Speaker 2: So, yeah, as you said, one at a time, right, I mean, some of these people are people that I've known ever since I was a kid, I've played music with forever. The vast majority of these people are musicians that I have been a fans of over the years that I just reached out to them to see if they might be interested in helping do something like this. I will say during the COVID years it kind of helped because all the musicians of the world were literally sitting in front of their computers with no gigs and nothing to do, and that point it really exploded.

3:01 Speaker 2: Everyone was looking for creative projects to be a part of, and I guess I just happened to be right there at the perfect time.

3:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, that comes up a lot on this show to COVID and how the pandemic affected how we make music, and I've always said, you know, obviously it was a terrible experience, but we have to find the silver linings where we can in one of the few silver linings what the pandemic was. I think it really kind of forced a lot of musicians to sort of reevaluate what they're willing to try in terms of making music and collaboration. You know, all the means to do that, all the technology already existed, and a lot of musicians were already doing it that way, but I think the pandemic forced a lot of musicians who maybe had been resistant to try and that you know, next thing, you know, you've like you've got classic rock bands getting together remotely online to do concerts on YouTube and stuff like that.

3:51 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, we saw this increase in people working and collaborating with people who they might not otherwise have ever had the chance to because now all of a sudden, they had a lot of time on their hands, as you alluded to, but also people just became a lot more open to the idea, well maybe I really can work with someone remotely and we'll we'll drop box tracks back and forth, and however this is going to go. So I think it really kind of changed just how people in a broad sense, just how musicians think about all that, and kind of open musicians up to working that way on a much greater level.

4:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely agree. It was kind of a fast forward button as soon as that happened, where you know, it might have taken people a few years, a few more years to get into working like that, but all of a sudden it turned into kind of that or nothing right, right, So yeah, no, people were all of a sudden. It's very very inspired to do things like that. And fortunately we had started this band three years prior to that, so the machinery of how we were working was already kind of set up. So literally, after reaching out to people, all I'd have to do is say like, look, we have the process in place.

4:53 Speaker 2: All you have to do is this, And it was very easy to bring people aboard at that time.

4:57 Speaker 1: That's a good position to be in where he sort of already got the end PRA structure in place, So.

5:01 Speaker 2: You're exactly yes, exactly right.

5:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's excellent. I'm really curious about the album title Apocalypse Pending, and there is sort of a uh, you know, as I listened to the lyrics of these tracks, there there is sort of a I mean, you know, they're very upbeat and energetic and and fun to listen to, but there's also a little bit of that that doom in there. How literally should we take this? Uh? This title is is that what the album is about, the the pending apocalypse? Or is there some other meaning attached to it? Or or maybe it's just a cool title.

5:31 Speaker 1: I don't know. I like the title, but but what what what should I take from it?

5:36 Speaker 2: The well, the the title came from actually the lyrics from a song.

5:39 Speaker 3: Uh.

5:40 Speaker 2: The guy who did all of the vocals on this particular record, his name is Chris Connelly. People might know him. He's a solo artist. He's also worked with like Ministry and Pig Face bands like that, And he did all the vocals on this record, and he wrote all the lyrics and when he turned in that particular song, to me, those two words just kind of jumped out as as an interesting way to kind of package this, this entire thing. Okay, And I think also a lot of this album was fueled by the energy that was going on at the time here in the States, and it was it just it just hit the The two words just seemed to fit perfectly for where.

6:15 Speaker 1: We're headed, right right. Yeah, I mean I hope you're wrong, but but I but I but I understand. I mean you probably hear from a lot of people who've said, who've said to you, Yeah, I kind of I'm feeling that. And and that's why this, uh, that's why this connects with me.

6:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And and kind of when we were working on this, it was right in the middle of when Ice was doing all sorts of raids here in Chicago and all this kind of crazy energy. And and Chris he's actually he's from Scotland. Yeah, so so he's here in the States, but he grew up in Scotland and he started to get nervous. I mean, they're the people who are were born in other places were starting to get nervous. He's one of them. And a lot of that kind of fear and anger was coming out in this music, and that's a that's a huge part of it.

6:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can see where people would connect with that. I just as as an aside, I know someone who's from Canada who is in the country legally but is afraid to go home to Canada to visit because she's she's worried that she won't get back in because exactly right, things are so things are so crazy right now.

7:13 Speaker 2: Exactly And that's the kind of fear and apprehension and tension that we're all feeling. When we were making this record. It was, it was in high gear at that time.

7:21 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I was just reading that you've is this quote true, You've you've described the lyrics as being quote violently anti fascist. Yeah.

7:30 Speaker 2: Absolutely. That quote comes directly from Chris, the guy who wrote all the lyrics.

7:34 Speaker 1: Oh gotcha, gotcha.

7:36 Speaker 2: So he he's and he does all of that. I don't write the lyrics, So that's a direct quote from him, so I can guarantee you that's exactly what he means.

7:43 Speaker 4: Yeah.

7:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's great. I love it. I love it.

7:46 Speaker 3: Well.

7:47 Speaker 1: So when you started, you know, kind of going back to when you started this during the pandemic. Was there ever a point where you felt like maybe this idea wasn't going to work? What like? Did you run in any challenges creatively where you thought this, you know, I to approach it this way, even though the technology is there, even though we're ready to do this. I'm not so sure. Were there any stumbling blocks or was it pretty smooth?

8:08 Speaker 2: You know, because we started, like I said, a few years before COVID, so we've been doing this for a while. So, like you said, the infrastructure was in place. So I will say, we always tend to bite off more than we think we can chew in the beginning on a lot of these projects. Sure, and there are so many moving parts, and I will says there was never a time where I thought this isn't gonna work. But I will say there are times that are very challenging for myself and my production partner James, because we're the ones everything has to go through us.

8:37 Speaker 2: Someone has to be staying there at the very front and make a lot of these decisions and it can be overwhelming. But that said, no, there was never a time where I thought this isn't gonna work. Every single thing about this project has felt very natural and very good.

8:49 Speaker 1: So that's good. That's good. And what about your partnership with ArmaLite Ams saying that correctly, ArmaLite Industries.

8:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, they're from London, They're a label from London. They have actually released everything that we've ever put out, and from the very beginning, wow, the very genesis of this band. And we put I put together a few recordings, some demos and stuff and sent them out to Armlite and from the very beginning they were just all aboard. They saw the vision completely. They have been amazing and stood by us for all this time.

9:20 Speaker 1: Oh that's outstanding. That's outstanding. I've also seen, you know, this referred to as industrial music, and obviously, I mean that's kind of a sort of a broad category. But do you feel like, how do you gauge kind of the interest in industrial music, because I feel like it's always been for since I was a kid. It's well, I don't know if we even had the term industrial music when I was a kid, necessarily, but sometimes I like to forget about how old I actually am. But but I feel like it's always sort of existed in this niche or niche as I guess people like to pronounce it lately, and it doesn't.

9:56 Speaker 1: It's so rarely sort of connects to the mainstream. I'm a radio guy, so I tend to think of it from the perspective of radio. So over the years, you know, there's been you know, there was nine Inch Nails and some others that are that you would put in that category of industrial, but there it seems like there's never a lot of mainstream industrial acts. And I'm not sure why that is, because you know, I'm a big fan, so I'm biased. I love industrial music. But but do you feel like recently there's been kind of a renewed interest in this type of music.

10:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, over the past few years, I think definitely. So it's one of these categories that's it's so broad that it's just kind of almost useless to call some bandosia kind of just because there are so many variations, right right, But I will agree with you, typically there's not a lot of that finds its way to the radio waves. But I will say, I mean, we come from a very sung oriented point of view. A lot of that music doesn't. And that's part of the reason that I really like a lot of that stuff.

10:59 Speaker 2: It's very experimental. It's very you know, there could be long kind of experimental pieces. We are song focused, and I think that comes out very clear in all of our recordings that we have stuff that could be played on the radio, but hopefully still fits in that category somehow.

11:15 Speaker 1: Right, No, that makes sense. That makes sense. It's very accessible. It's just a matter of getting it to the right people to hear it. What can you tell me about the video for for No Anchor? Sure?

11:31 Speaker 2: Well did the video for No Anchor was just a lyric video that we did. And and the guy who's in itto doing the vocals, that's Chris. That's Chris Connelly, the guy who's sang all the vocals on this. And you know, it's kind of fun when we make videos because this project exists literally just as a recording project. This is we don't play shows, we don't tour, we don't do any of that. So some of the some of these videos give us the chance to actually get together in a room and perform and do some fun stuff, which I really do joy.

12:00 Speaker 1: Right, No Anchor? I apologize, Dan, Yeah, No Anchor is a lyric video. I said the wrong. I meant the wrong end of the rifle the wrong end of your rifle. I really like this video a lot. That's what I meant to ask you. This is the visually this is I mean, it's it's disturbing, but it's it's it's fascinating. I'm actually playing it right now again just to kind of refresh my mind on it. But I love the uh, I love the effects on this that just visually it's it's you know, and it's funny too, because we were talking about technology and how how you can do things differently than you used to be able to.

12:33 Speaker 1: There was a time when to make a video like this it would be so expensive, you know, to make a video and get it on MTV and all of that. But now you can do it.

12:45 Speaker 2: Uh.

12:45 Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know about the making of this video. But you can do something that looks incredible for but it's much more accessible to be able to do something that is really visually stunning like this video.

12:57 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we're lucky that we've had. Actually, our very first music video was made by this guy, Joel Lopez from Lumber Productions. He's the same guy who's made every single music video that we've done, including that one. So very early kind of like the label. Very early, we stumbled across somebody who was the perfect match for what we were trying to do. And you'll see our videos. Everyone has its own kind of look, but they're all from the same guy.

13:22 Speaker 1: Oh okay, that makes sense. Well, yeah, you found somebody who definitely really captures something there, so it makes sense as you would want to work with them. Yeah, I suggest people check out the video. It's just it's just really cool. It kind of reminds me a little bit of some of the videos I would see on MTV in the nineties that were you know, like not again so little industrial music kind of made it into that MTV mainstream. But I would watch one hundred and twenty minutes on Sunday nights and see some things that you wouldn't see in regular rotation on MTV, and I would see videos that, you know, kind of had an esthetic like that.

13:54 Speaker 1: Maybe it makes me a little nostalgic for that, but no, it was just really cool and it's it's such a great song. So, yeah, you did mention live. So none of these so none of these songs ever get played live, right, because there's really no way for you to do that. Because it's such a large collective.

14:10 Speaker 2: Exactly. The closest we come is when we're making videos. We actually did in twenty twenty one, we actually got together in a studio with a group of people and did some live some live recordings in the studio, and that's the closest we've been. We have no plans on doing any tours or gigging or anything like that. Is just there's so many moving parts and I never say never, I guess, I guess it could happen, but at this point in time, that's kind of not the point of what we're trying to do. The point is writing and releasing the music, right.

14:37 Speaker 1: Right, So what's Obviously you're focused on this album and promoting this album, but do you kind of know what's next for the Joy Thieves, what the forward trajectory is.

14:49 Speaker 2: You know, there's always stuff cooking in the background. Which is always one of the fun parts is you know, by the time an album actually comes out, we're already knee deep in something else that we're working on. So it's good. There's always a plan for new music and there's always going to be forward motion on this thing, and hopefully that means bringing possibly even more people and involving more people and seeing where it goes and just watching it progress.

15:13 Speaker 1: No, that's fantastic. In a moment, We're going to play this track, ambush Vines because I think, tell me if I have this right? Was this the previous single before? No Anger?

15:23 Speaker 2: No No Way? There was The Wrong End of Your Rifle was the first single, oh, and No Anchor was the second single.

15:30 Speaker 1: Oh I Got You? I Got You?

15:31 Speaker 3: Oh.

15:31 Speaker 1: I think Ambush Vines was a focused track. Okay it is, Yes, you know what. I'm going to actually play them both at the end of our conversation because I really like both tracks. I like the whole thing. Thank you, we have to Yeah, we have time. I can see them both in. But where before we let you go, Dan, where's the best place for people to go online to keep up with everything that you're doing? Because I want people to be able to find you, and like I said, the album is incredible. People should listen to the whole thing.

15:53 Speaker 1: But where's the best place to go online?

15:56 Speaker 2: You can go to the joy Thieves dot com. That's probably the best place because that links to all of our other sites, you know, and we're on obviously all the socials, and then we do we do a lot of our sales through band Camp yep. So we also have a band Camp page under the Joy Thieves, So any of those places will work great.

16:11 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're on band Camp too. That's something I've really been pushing on the show for a couple of years now. Band Camp, I think is such a great resource and something that people don't necessarily realize. And I always try to impart this to my listeners. If you purchase a track on band camp, you know, not only not only is band camp very artists friendly, so you're helping the artist, but you also get the highest quality file of the track that you're going to get versus say, you know, if you're just streaming it on YouTube or something, you know, you get a high you get a high quality file from band Camp.

16:43 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I'm a huge band camp fan and we and that's why we do a lot of work through them, and we release everything through them. And honestly, just as a listener, I go to band Camp all the time. That's where I buy all my music.

16:54 Speaker 1: Oh good good, Yeah that's excellent. Yeah. We love band camp so very good, very good. So we're gonna go ahead and hit this. I think I'm gonna play the Wrong End of your Rifle and then I'm gonna play Ambush Vines. But another a great couple of tracks. But uh, Dan Milligan, thank you so much for joining us. We'll definitely do this again in the future. It sounds like you've got a lot coming up in the future of the Joy Thieves and and we'd love to have you back. And of course we'll talk about anything else that you're up to as well.

17:17 Speaker 1: But I really love this this album. Congratulations on Apocalypse Pending. I think it's great. I encourage everyone to check it out. Go to band camp and check it out. And Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.

17:28 Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun.

17:29 Speaker 1: Oh great, Thank you all right, talk to you soon.

17:31 Speaker 2: Bye bye, okay, bye bye.

17:33 Speaker 1: All right. That is Daniel Milligan from The Joy Thieves. And yeah, we're gonna play both of these. These are these are worth playing. Uh let's see, so we've got the wrong end of the Rifle and then we're gonna follow that up with Ambush Vines, two great tracks from The Joy Thieves. Check this out.

18:00 Speaker 4: Why I feeling bristless something came alive about bullet proofast and an angry portal to my heart from my walkie.

18:09 Speaker 2: Talking to the shopping.

18:10 Speaker 4: Sound of bloodshead overall stop going to stir it up. But did you catch the streets or body line defeat?

18:19 Speaker 5: Don't come feel.

18:21 Speaker 6: Coming along down here to the siren.

18:23 Speaker 2: Says it's over.

18:27 Speaker 4: Come the line down here till the suniren says it's sober.

18:31 Speaker 5: Not one to clist with my infastus more like coniac arrest us manas Agler and said heavily on Conchester.

18:43 Speaker 6: Man said fast and paying the lamb. Come on, friend, thank god your sad, I said, Jack came to me and nothing, looking at.

18:54 Speaker 7: The knife for penske and the running walk. Your knife.

19:02 Speaker 6: Suck on that thing.

19:04 Speaker 3: Afraid I want to speak.

19:05 Speaker 4: So Chris through Buddy caps hand could take an orgasm with a bullet raiser, unsorry, but.

19:12 Speaker 3: We never filmed it.

19:13 Speaker 4: No play, not even partially helping any of these freaks can recall the last time the either hazer fool the breeze along with cigarettes dissolving.

19:23 Speaker 1: It's a bull of broad lock.

19:26 Speaker 3: You want me back again, you want me back, You want me back, You want.

19:37 Speaker 6: Me back again.

19:38 Speaker 7: You want me back, You want me back, speaks.

20:10 Speaker 6: Becun sa mas convey away cover a grand and your say, I say I can't the pay.

20:20 Speaker 1: That's the bay looking to stifle.

20:22 Speaker 3: Player say.

20:25 Speaker 7: I'm run got my pouch.

20:30 Speaker 8: I haven't run, Look at my poul, I haven't run my bout they can I go up, Let me grab.

20:54 Speaker 2: Kia, come in the house. Recomc cap.

21:03 Speaker 3: The path.

21:06 Speaker 7: There acrus.

21:10 Speaker 3: Hack Why hack? Why hack?

21:18 Speaker 6: It's not your love of dream to ride a mercedary resolute to SAMs no boddy.

21:25 Speaker 8: Strangers lost on driven.

21:27 Speaker 4: Side, it's not your body.

21:29 Speaker 5: Try to reveal and leave them about.

21:32 Speaker 1: Wants them all on.

21:33 Speaker 5: Secret crowd strangers lost on Driven's side, and respite.

21:40 Speaker 3: A minders wear white.

21:43 Speaker 5: To the moon to read the size bogata, to let the grass contact of the self cross, to write the price.

21:51 Speaker 4: If you're reply to try along the great device nigger wi redomics like the tail of a self cross.

22:00 Speaker 3: It's just the state of fine.

22:02 Speaker 4: Beware the average fe states of mine is just a state of.

22:07 Speaker 2: N Beware the average fine. It's just just the states of fne.

22:12 Speaker 4: Beware the average big state of mind, just the stains of vine.

22:17 Speaker 5: Beware the average line that your brother dream was.

22:22 Speaker 4: Ri se tap against the great escape the choicing, it is just so wet?

22:30 Speaker 8: Is that a legal mass cleave?

22:33 Speaker 1: The closuit is to again.

22:36 Speaker 3: The block back to.

22:37 Speaker 7: The gun for hi back Thruans.

22:44 Speaker 3: Understand the fs.

22:46 Speaker 5: Fine mind a weird light to them to read the size, to let a grass contat of the scro to write the rise.

22:57 Speaker 3: It's your fine, Oh my great surmise, make a lad.

23:02 Speaker 2: What direct to me like potato a silk crode.

23:06 Speaker 8: It's just a stati mine.

23:08 Speaker 5: Be welly, and by say a b just a stat.

23:13 Speaker 3: To mine, be welly, stay up, by a fine welly fi stay ye say well. Yeah.

23:36 Speaker 1: Oh I love it. I love that project, The Joy Thieves. Snip you again to Daniel Milligan for joining us.

23:42 Speaker 3: Uh.

23:43 Speaker 1: We had a great conversation. I thought I really enjoyed talking with him, and I love that project, The Joy Thieves. The album is called Apocalypse pending hopefully. Uh they're wrong about that. But Chris Connolly, the vocalist on this as Dan and I were discussing, describes the music has been violently anti fascist, which I'm on board with. So I love that. But yeah, that is The Joy Thieves. Check out the whole album. Go to bandcamp check it out. Not right now, stay with me for the rest of the show, but afterward, please immediately afterward, I mean immediately, like, don't even I don't care what else you have to do.

24:22 Speaker 1: Immediately go to bandcamp and check out the Joy Thieves and the album Apocalypse Pending. It is really, really good. This is Matt Connorton Unleashed and we are live from the studios of wm NH ninety five point three FM and Glorious but Hot. Gloriously hot if you ask me, because I like the heat, Manchester, New Hampshire. And of course you can stream the show from anywhere. Go to Matt connorton dot com slash live for all your live streaming options, social media links, contact info, show archives, et cetera, et cetera.

24:50 Speaker 1: And of course don't forget the new website, Matt Connorton Unleashed dot com. A simpler site but lots of great content and a searchable archive. If you're looking for a particular guest who's been on the show, that is your best bet Matt Connerton Unleashed dot com. And we've got some cool new stuff that we're adding to that as well. We've got a couple of articles in the on the blog page of the site, but we're gonna be adding a lot more content there, so not just audio for you to peruse, but also some articles you don't really peruse.

25:22 Speaker 1: Article audio. I said that backward. I think audio that you can listen to, but articles that you can peruse. Articles seem perusible necessarily. I don't know if perusible is even a word. But here we are today is Saturday, June thirteen, twenty twenty six. Very nice to have you with me. Thank you, and let's see, let's do a little bit more music industry news. Here's something that kind of as a radio guy, I saw this and I said, WHOA, what's going on here? This is from a music business worldwide dot com?

25:52 Speaker 1: As I always say, one of my favorite websites for music industry news says here ASCAP sues four radio groups for its prolonged unauthorized use of its members music. Now, this is interesting to me because in radio, when you're in a radio station such as I am right now, for example, you know you take it for granted, you can just play whatever you want. It's radio, and you know it's a complex process. But radio pays, you know, these performing arts companies or we have to report to the I'm not involved in any of it, but we report to the performance performing arts companies.

26:28 Speaker 1: You know what gets played and so you know, are the artists get paid for their songs being played on the radio, et cetera. We won't get into the details of that. But this this, I saw this, and I said, WHOA, what's going on? Okay, So again ASKAPS. Who's four radio groups for prolonged unauthorized use of its members music? It says here ASKAP has filed copyright infringement lawsuits against four US radio groups that it says have broadcast its members music without a valid license. Oh, this isn't something you expect even to hear about in twenty twenty six.

27:05 Speaker 1: Maybe back in the days of pirate radio stations and outlaw radio, but not in this hyper corporatized radio world that we live in now. You don't expect to ever hear stories like this. That's part of why this caught my attention. So the Performing Rights Organization ASCAP said on Tuesday, June nine that the four groups operate a total of fifteen radio stations. Now, let's see if we recognize any of these names. It sounds like these are all very small companies, you know, because in radio, obviously, you've got big companies like iHeart Radio, which is I think the biggest volidation in the music in the well, not just in the music industry, not really in the music industry, but in the radio industry specifically.

27:51 Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of consolidation, a lot of big companies buying up smaller companies. You see it in every industry really, but I think iHeartRadio is the biggest, used to be Clear Channel. But these are all it looks like these are all very small radio groups because I haven't heard of any of these. Huago broad I don't even know how to pronounce Itago ha Ugo, who Go, I don't know, I don't know what that is. But I've never heard of them. Who Go Broadcasting Inc. In South Dakota, Spoon River Media LLC in Indiana, Taylor Communications in Mississippi, And uh oh, this one's hitting close to home.

28:33 Speaker 1: Barry Lunderville Radio in New Hampshire. Uh oh, We're gonna have to look up what station's Berry Lunderville Radio owns and why is it called Barry? This guy literally. I assume there's a guy named Berry Lunderville who started the company and decided to call it Barry Lunderville Radio. Uh. Okay, we're gonna look that up in a minute. Okay.

29:00 Speaker 2: Here.

29:00 Speaker 1: According to the article, ASCAP represents more than one point one million songwriters, composers, and music publishers and licenses the public performance of their work to businesses that play music, including radio stations. About ninety percent of the license fees that ASCAP collects are paid to its songwriters, composers, and music publishers as royalties. Most US commercial radio stations license ASCAPS music through an agreement between ASCAP and the Radio Music License Committee, which negotiates blanket license rates on the industry's behalf.

29:36 Speaker 1: That agreement provides access to more than twenty million works for ASCAPS repertory for a fee calculated as a percentage of station revenues. According to the organization, ASCAP and the RmlC reached a settlement in August twenty twenty five that raised the royalty rates paid by almost ten thousand commercial terrestrial radio stations in the US. The deal included year on year increases in the percentage of revenue rate paid by Stations. BMI, another US performing rights organization, reached its own RmlC settlement in August twenty twenty five, in what it called its largest rate increase ever for radio.

30:18 Speaker 1: By the way, sidebar obvious, but I'll say it bad for radio, but good for the artists. Okay, radio has to pay more, but the artists are getting more. Radio stations that broadcast music typically licensed multiple performing rights organizations, including ASCAP, BMI, CSACK, and Global Music Rights. A license from one does not cover the others, and each pursues its own infringement actions against stations that do not pay.

30:49 Speaker 1: ASCAP chairman of the board and president and songwriter Paul Williams are member. Paul Williams. Remember Paul Williams said, quote, music is the lifeblood of radio, and the overwhelming majority of radio stations follow the law unquote. By the way, I can picture Paul Williams, but I can't think of any Paul Williams songs, he also said, quote, And that's not a diss on Paul Williams. I just I can't. I literally, I can picture what he looks like very clearly. I cannot think of a single Paul Williams song why is that?

31:21 Speaker 1: I don't know? I apologize to Paul Williams. Quote. As songwriters and composers, we earn our livelihoods through our creative work, and music is how we put food on the table, pay the rent, and support our families. Radio station owners know that an ASKAP blank at license allows them to offer music legally, efficiently, and at a reasonable price, while compensating music creators fairly unquote. Under federal copyright law, broadcasters must obtain permission from copyright owners before playing their music.

31:53 Speaker 1: Ass CAP said the four station groups have repeatedly refused to renew their licenses and pay the required fees according to ask ASCAP said the defendants of broadcast music written and published by its members without authorization or payment for the last several years. Clara Kim, ASCAP's EVP, Executive vice president and chief Legal and business affairs officers said, quote, we don't take legal action lightly when a station refuses to pay for the music that makes their business possible. We have a responsibility to our members to take action unquote.

32:27 Speaker 1: ASCAP said it terminated each broadcaster's license and proceeded with litigation after exhausting attempts to reach a resolution. ASCAP says it is the only US performing rights organization that operates on a not for profit basis. I didn't know that about ninety percent of the license fees that ASCAP collects are paid to the songwriters, composers, and music publishers as royalties, the organization said.

32:53 Speaker 4: Ummmm.

32:54 Speaker 1: ASCAP licenses its repertory to streaming services, television and rap D broadcasters, and a brick and mortar businesses such as bars, restaurants, and retail stories. Now that's something a lot of people don't know. Say, when you go into a bar and you hear music being played over the stereo a bar or any kind of business, you know, that's again, they have to pay for that. That's not free. They don't just turn on the radio and let it play, or put on some music and let it play, or you use a service for that and just let it play and that's it.

33:30 Speaker 1: They have to pay for that. And venues, music venues, And I don't care how big or small it is, even if it's just a little tiny, little, you know, dive bar on the corner, if they have someone come in and play live, like maybe they have an acoustic singer songwriter come in and play live in the little bar, this little tiny bar that nobody even knows about. They do have to pay for that. If the artists, I mean, if they're playing original songs, it doesn't matter. But if they're playing cover songs, the bar has to pay for that.

33:59 Speaker 1: They have to pay these licensing organizations for that if they don't. And by the way, this is gonna sound wild. I swear to some of you won't even believe me when I say this, but I swear to God this is the truth. They and I'll tell you in a minute why I know about this. They actually send these performing rights organizations, performance rights organizations, they have people they send into bars and other types of venues undercover. I'm not kidding. Undercover. They have people go in to find out what's going on.

34:35 Speaker 1: Oh, you've got a band playing tonight, let's see. Oh are they doing cover songs?

34:43 Speaker 8: Oh?

34:44 Speaker 1: Are these cover songs of any of our clients at ASKAP. Oh we have a problem, and they will, uh, they will make it known to the owner or the management of that establishment. No, you are about to You've got a heap of trouble here because you can't be doing this. And we're about to I don't know how it works. We're about to find you a lot of money or something. I don't know how that would work. But so in other words, they actively and they will send. Look years ago, when I was living in Conquered there was a place called Cafe Eclipse.

35:20 Speaker 1: And we might even have some listeners of this show. If you've been with me for a long time, you might even remember Cafe Eclipse. Christian and Star Skinner good friends of mine. They were the owners and operators of Cafe Eclipse, and but they had a strict policy there no covers. And it was Christian who told me Christian Skinner who told me that the reason is they had actually had someone in there one night who revealed themselves ultimately to be from one of the performing rights organizations, checking out what's going on because and telling Christian.

35:59 Speaker 1: If I remember the story correctly, this person confronted Christian at some point during the evening and said, look, this is where I'm from, this is why i'm here, and you owe us a lot of money, and you've got bands coming into your playing these cover songs and you can't do that. So then they had to make a rule, no more cover songs. I was in a band at the time called the Jinkst.

36:23 Speaker 3: And we.

36:26 Speaker 1: Just the guy thought this was funny. I didn't think it was funny, but you know, because I told them we can't play any covers and we're on stage one night and they started just to mess with me the the opening part of smells like Teen Spirit by Nirvana. Troy started playing that on the guitar and Frank, who was our drummer at the time, started playing it on the joined him on the drums, and I just sat down on the stage with my arms crossed, like, guys, we can't do this. And I know you think this is funny, but this isn't funny because this actual real world sort of you know, consequences here.

37:01 Speaker 1: You're going to ruin our relationship with the venue, who do not want to have to pay for us playing the song right now. So and they were just you know, they didn't they didn't keep playing it. They just play at the beginning of it. But it was like, but I did not enjoy seeing a panicked face come running into the room when they hear what we're doing. It's like, come on, guys, let's let's not jeopardize our relationships. Here with these venues because we need them anyway. But they they will do that.

37:29 Speaker 1: And and I've heard stories and talked to people over the years about again. You know, Oh, I've got a tiny hole in the wall dive bar on the corner that you know, you wouldn't think anyone would even notice was there. We you know, except for the people who come there to drink. And sometimes we have somebody coming in with a guitar and play a little bit. And one night we had someone from BMI come in and put some paperwork down on the bar in front of me and said, you owe us money. So it does happen.

37:57 Speaker 1: It does happen. So I saw that. I thought that was very interesting. Oh, we were going to I'm gonna do this in real time live on the show because I want to know more about these radio groups. One of them is in New Hampshire and I am not familiar with them, Barry Lunderville Radio. I want to google this. Who is Barry Lunderville Radio? And are they even still in business now? Well, apparently Barry Lunderville is dead, I guess because I've got an obituary here from twenty eighteen. Huh. Oh wow, he actually looks familiar to me.

38:38 Speaker 1: Barry Lunderville, he died in twenty eighteen, says Barry's life was radio. He began his career at the tender age of fifteen at WLTN. That da goes on and on. All right, I'm just curious, rip Barry Lunderville. Hoh, sorry, you're gone whatever.

38:57 Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Are these people even in business now that ASCAP has pulled their license. There's a lot of articles here online about ASCAP suing them. Oh, they were involved. Barry Lunderville was involved in some litigation in Oh my God, twenty seventeen. There's an article here from Inside Radio. This is from twenty seventeen. His appeal rejected, Lunderville still owes the FCC two hundred and forty four thousand dollars. That's a fine they got fined for something by the FCC. Oh boy, these are some outlaws here at Barry Lunderville Radio says here.

39:46 Speaker 1: This is from twenty seventeen. A federal appeals court in Boston is rejected an attempt by New Hampshire station owner Barry Lunderville to have a financial penalty issued against him by the FCC. Canceled or reduced. The agency handed Underville a two hundred and forty four thousand dollars bill after he withdrew a bit submitted for a new FM during an FCC auction. Okay, not as uh I thought it was. Maybe for something that happened on the air. The FCC find them or something. But no, nothing quite as uh juicy as that.

40:20 Speaker 1: Huh. Well, I don't see again. I see a lot of a lot of articles about ASCAP filing infringement lawsuits against Barry Lunderville Radio, but I don't see anything that indicates are these people even still in business. WLTNFM is owned by Barry Lunderville. I'm looking at ltn's Wikipedia page. I see. I'm wondering if they're off the air now because of what's going on. Uh the Wikipedia page doesn't have a lot of information. All right, We'll move on from that. We'll move on from that. I think I do want to fit in one more great track from The Joy Thieves.

41:01 Speaker 1: I love this project so much. This is another single from The Joy Thieves. And again, thank you for Thank you to Dan Milligan for joining us earlier. I really enjoyed speaking with him and I love this project. The album is called Apocalypse Pending, the project is The Joy Thieves, and this is called I'll Be Your Hammer.