David L. Shabazz | Matt Connarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: But we do have a couple of fine gentlemen here

0:03 Speaker 1: joining us via Microsoft Teams. So I'll introduce first someone

0:06 Speaker 1: longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,

0:12 Speaker 1: how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,

0:15 Speaker 1: Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and

0:17 Speaker 1: Eric's been a part of this show off and on

0:21 Speaker 1: for years now, years and years. So but I did

0:24 Speaker 1: there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co

0:27 Speaker 1: host the hour one segment with me this morning, because

0:31 Speaker 1: we also have with us David Shabbaz is with us,

0:34 Speaker 1: and David welcome to the show. Of course. David is

0:37 Speaker 1: an author and a journalist, and of course is the

0:41 Speaker 1: author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,

0:45 Speaker 1: the third edition. And so David, we're excited to talk

0:48 Speaker 1: to you because Eric and I, of course we're both

0:52 Speaker 1: lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and so I was thrilled

0:57 Speaker 1: when you reached out to us about coming on the

0:59 Speaker 1: coming on the show. Oh, and it's great to have here,

1:01 Speaker 1: and congratulations on the third edition of the book. That's

1:04 Speaker 1: pretty cool.

1:05 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, and I'm glad to be here with.

1:08 Speaker 1: You both absolutely, So. The first thing I'd like to

1:11 Speaker 1: know from you is why did you Why did you

1:14 Speaker 1: write the book? What was your inspiration for doing this?

1:18 Speaker 3: Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to

1:21 Speaker 3: keep it a little short. This particular book, I really

1:26 Speaker 3: wrote this book.

1:27 Speaker 2: To further my brother's legacy. My brother Julian.

1:33 Speaker 3: Was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,

1:37 Speaker 3: and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,

1:43 Speaker 3: I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's

1:47 Speaker 3: Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook

1:52 Speaker 3: that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying

1:59 Speaker 3: tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition

2:03 Speaker 3: out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be

2:07 Speaker 3: good because there had been a few more wrestlers at

2:10 Speaker 3: that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who

2:15 Speaker 3: were profiled, and a few more had actually won the

2:18 Speaker 3: title in twenty two, and so I put that second

2:22 Speaker 3: edition out, And this is the third, which is larger.

2:28 Speaker 3: It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,

2:32 Speaker 3: and this one is a little more of me, if

2:36 Speaker 3: you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.

2:39 Speaker 1: Oh that's outstanding, and I really like the way that

2:43 Speaker 1: you open the book with, well, there's a lot of

2:45 Speaker 1: information in this book, but you open it with that scene.

2:48 Speaker 1: And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly as well.

2:53 Speaker 1: You go back to that scene where Booker T and

2:55 Speaker 1: you gave the whole backstory, which is great. You go

2:57 Speaker 1: into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular. Booker

3:00 Speaker 1: T is in WWE?

3:02 Speaker 2: Was it?

3:03 Speaker 1: Had it switched out? I forget? Was it still wwfor

3:06 Speaker 1: had it changed? At that point?

3:07 Speaker 4: The seeing the WWE switch happened in two thousand and two.

3:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.

3:20 Speaker 2: Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It

3:22 Speaker 2: was Matt was two thousand and three.

3:24 Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha?

3:26 Speaker 5: If it was the infamous Booker T Triple.

3:29 Speaker 4: H Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two

3:33 Speaker 4: thousand and three. And I want to say, as a

3:37 Speaker 4: Triple H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes

3:42 Speaker 4: on his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,

3:48 Speaker 4: and I'm sorry to go into the woods here, I

3:50 Speaker 4: remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,

3:56 Speaker 4: being uncomfortable. I mean, sorry to say this, but he

4:05 Speaker 4: stopped short of calling Booker t boy.

4:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some

4:12 Speaker 1: racial overtones to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke and

4:17 Speaker 1: and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it was

4:19 Speaker 1: intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective it was,

4:22 Speaker 1: but it was not, you know what I mean, But

4:25 Speaker 1: but it was it was not subtle. And I thought that, David.

4:28 Speaker 1: I thought that that was a perfect way to open

4:30 Speaker 1: the book talking about that specific promo and that storyline,

4:35 Speaker 1: and of course for wrestling fans who are are familiar

4:37 Speaker 1: with that whole uh, that whole angle, we know that

4:41 Speaker 1: the hero did not prevail at WrestleMania and did not

4:44 Speaker 1: win the title, which a lot of people at the

4:46 Speaker 1: time thought was a mistake and many people still think

4:49 Speaker 1: that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you

4:51 Speaker 1: when you opened the book with that scene, was it

4:55 Speaker 1: was it obvious to you that that was the one

4:58 Speaker 1: to go with or or did you have to kind

5:00 Speaker 1: of make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if

5:03 Speaker 1: you were to ask me about a racially tinged, to

5:08 Speaker 1: put it lightly angle in quote unquote modern day WWE,

5:12 Speaker 1: I would That's probably the first one I would think of.

5:14 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, I mean, were there other Were there

5:17 Speaker 1: other options as far as what the opening scene was

5:19 Speaker 1: going to be in the book to kind of to

5:21 Speaker 1: kind of set up the book.

5:23 Speaker 3: No, not at all, because the title of the book

5:28 Speaker 3: is pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is

5:32 Speaker 3: saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,

5:37 Speaker 3: and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,

5:39 Speaker 3: that was there was no other choice that was the

5:41 Speaker 3: appropriate text to use for this.

5:44 Speaker 1: Absolutely, no, thats no, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,

5:47 Speaker 1: you know in Booker T is such a great talent too,

5:50 Speaker 1: and he was a you know that I used to

5:52 Speaker 1: love that catchphrase five time, five time, five times, five times,

5:55 Speaker 1: five time world champion.

5:56 Speaker 3: And would you actually said six times that promo?

6:01 Speaker 1: You do? You pointed that out in the book. Yeah,

6:04 Speaker 1: which was.

6:05 Speaker 4: Great, David a question, And actually I wanted to do

6:10 Speaker 4: something to the Booker T story.

6:13 Speaker 5: I've actually heard through various shoot interviews.

6:18 Speaker 4: That Rick Flair had a lot to do with that promo.

6:24 Speaker 3: I mean, because Rick Rick was there in the ring

6:27 Speaker 3: with Triple H though he didn't say anything.

6:30 Speaker 2: But but he's there in his corner.

6:34 Speaker 4: I mean a lot of There are a few African

6:37 Speaker 4: Americans that have said and even Caucasian wrestlers have said

6:46 Speaker 4: Rick Flair is by proxy a very uh I don't

6:52 Speaker 4: want to say racist individual, but definitely has said racist statements.

6:58 Speaker 4: And I have heard that that notorious promo Rick Flair

7:03 Speaker 4: kind of fed Triple H things to say at that.

7:09 Speaker 5: I think it was, I want to say, and I

7:12 Speaker 5: could be wrong.

7:13 Speaker 4: I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory

7:16 Speaker 4: can serve you horribly.

7:19 Speaker 5: I was Bruce Pritchard.

7:22 Speaker 4: That said it on something to wrestle when they were

7:25 Speaker 4: talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania twenty nineteen.

7:31 Speaker 5: I believe it was.

7:33 Speaker 4: Yes, I believe he said that Vince and Rick were

7:38 Speaker 4: kind of behind.

7:40 Speaker 1: That wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what do you say, David.

7:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether

7:49 Speaker 3: that was true or not.

7:50 Speaker 2: I do know.

7:53 Speaker 3: I'm a large segment of the black community really likes

7:57 Speaker 3: Rick Flair. I mean, I don't think that Rick would

8:01 Speaker 3: purposely try to insult, you know, his fan base like that,

8:05 Speaker 3: But I don't know.

8:06 Speaker 1: That is a good point you make David, because the

8:08 Speaker 1: hip hop community really in a big way, strangely late

8:13 Speaker 1: in his career, but really embraced has embraced Ric Flair

8:16 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. So that's yeah, that's that's

8:18 Speaker 1: an interesting point.

8:19 Speaker 5: Too racist by any stretch.

8:22 Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to say that, you know, and David,

8:26 Speaker 4: I'm sure can back this up.

8:29 Speaker 5: Uh pro wrestling and.

8:34 Speaker 4: Up until I would say probably the late aes when

8:39 Speaker 4: w c W made Ron uh Ron Simmons world champion

8:44 Speaker 4: was a good boys network so to speak. It really

8:50 Speaker 4: wrestling has a very complicated history with African Americans and

8:58 Speaker 4: it's very sad. I mean to the point where you

9:01 Speaker 4: had a very great talent in w W E name.

9:06 Speaker 5: Bad News Brown.

9:08 Speaker 4: Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler, but

9:17 Speaker 4: when he Alan Cosage. But when he got to WWE,

9:22 Speaker 4: they made in this militant African American from Harlem. I

9:28 Speaker 4: mean things like that, where you hear guys that were

9:33 Speaker 4: in Stampede that's like no Brown could go.

9:37 Speaker 5: Yeah, he was his page in Stampede.

9:40 Speaker 1: Historically, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in

9:45 Speaker 1: in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say

9:48 Speaker 1: until recently, I mean, I think, I think wrestling has

9:50 Speaker 1: changed a lot, but but yeah, historically there has been

9:54 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.

9:58 Speaker 4: I guess my question David is going through all of that,

10:03 Speaker 4: did you was there ever? I guess anger that rose

10:08 Speaker 4: up in you when you would I'm sure in your

10:11 Speaker 4: research you encountered this. Was there ever, that anger that

10:15 Speaker 4: you're like, Wow, this is awful, this is horrible. I mean,

10:20 Speaker 4: there's long been the story of Bill Watts in.

10:24 Speaker 5: A bathroom dropping.

10:27 Speaker 4: That's about Junkyard Dog, and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets

10:33 Speaker 4: and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE

10:36 Speaker 4: then WWA.

10:37 Speaker 5: So was there ever a sense of anger?

10:40 Speaker 4: And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out?

10:46 Speaker 2: No? Not at all.

10:48 Speaker 3: And I don't want to get off track, but I

10:53 Speaker 3: really hate.

10:53 Speaker 2: It when people are driven by negative energy.

10:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now

11:00 Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,

11:04 Speaker 3: and I don't think that's sustainable.

11:06 Speaker 2: And I don't like.

11:08 Speaker 3: My focus comes from my desire and what I want

11:11 Speaker 3: to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say,

11:13 Speaker 3: my internal worth and internal value and my focus is

11:18 Speaker 3: strong enough. I don't need somebody on the outside to

11:22 Speaker 3: make me upset to make me want to do something

11:24 Speaker 3: or excel in it. I really hate when people say

11:27 Speaker 3: I'm using my haters as my motivators.

11:29 Speaker 2: No, I don't know.

11:30 Speaker 3: That's negative energy for me. So no, that was never

11:35 Speaker 3: really anything that drove me. And like you said, I've

11:37 Speaker 3: been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost fifty six.

11:43 Speaker 3: I've been watching wrestling all of my life. So yes,

11:49 Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of those stories. I've seen the racism.

11:52 Speaker 3: So it wasn't really anything that really surprised me in

11:57 Speaker 3: a way that would make me really upset about it.

12:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, because the book itself is very positive.

12:03 Speaker 1: You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,

12:05 Speaker 1: you you share the scene about a booker T and

12:08 Speaker 1: Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,

12:11 Speaker 1: you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who

12:14 Speaker 1: had become many world champions or tag team champions and

12:18 Speaker 1: so forth, and and it's a very positive read. I

12:21 Speaker 1: was particularly I I especially enjoyed the part about uh

12:25 Speaker 1: Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on

12:30 Speaker 1: television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,

12:33 Speaker 1: and I just thought it was so cool, you know,

12:35 Speaker 1: and they a w c W at the time, you know,

12:38 Speaker 1: they they did make a kind of a big deal

12:40 Speaker 1: about you know, Ron Simmons is the first black world Champion.

12:43 Speaker 1: But it's funny though in the moment watching that, I

12:45 Speaker 1: wasn't even thinking about that. I was just thinking because

12:47 Speaker 1: I was I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it

12:49 Speaker 1: was a surprise, uh, because he was substituting for was

12:53 Speaker 1: it it was Sting, right, it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah,

12:56 Speaker 1: So so I thought the whole thing was so cool,

12:58 Speaker 1: and I thought the finish of that was just really

13:00 Speaker 1: cool too. Just everything about it was awesome, and I

13:03 Speaker 1: just remember I popped for it watching it on television.

13:06 Speaker 1: But but that was one of my favorite parts because

13:08 Speaker 1: that was a moment that really connected with me. And then, uh,

13:11 Speaker 1: you know, and of course Ron Simmons went on to

13:13 Speaker 1: have a great career eventually in u w WUS for Ruke,

13:17 Speaker 1: and you know, just everything everything he went on to

13:19 Speaker 1: do was amazing. But but that was such a that

13:22 Speaker 1: was such a huge moment, and uh, and I love that,

13:25 Speaker 1: and and I love the way you you know, the

13:27 Speaker 1: way you really took the time to go into a

13:30 Speaker 1: lot of detail giving the histories. Some of these black

13:33 Speaker 1: wrestlers were people I'd never even heard of, and some

13:37 Speaker 1: of them, obviously I was very familiar with, and some

13:39 Speaker 1: I was kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd, for example.

13:42 Speaker 1: I knew who Ernie Ladd was, didn't know much about him.

13:44 Speaker 1: Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him

13:46 Speaker 1: reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.

13:49 Speaker 4: I'm I just wanted to say, I'm shocked that there

13:52 Speaker 4: hasn't been something more in depth done about Earning Lad.

13:59 Speaker 5: Just you want to talk about not just.

14:05 Speaker 4: To say call him an African American Pro wrestling champion

14:11 Speaker 4: is in my opinion, it trivializes him because he is

14:17 Speaker 4: paramount in the territory days.

14:20 Speaker 5: He is equally.

14:23 Speaker 4: A top I would say, top ten talent all time

14:28 Speaker 4: in the territory days. If it wasn't for him, you,

14:34 Speaker 4: I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near as

14:39 Speaker 4: successful as it was.

14:40 Speaker 5: Him and Jyde carried that promotion.

14:43 Speaker 4: Because if they were the top faces and to get

14:49 Speaker 4: heels over like the Free Birds, Ted DBIASI and all

14:55 Speaker 4: those guys. You need powerhouse faces. Ernie Ladd just you

15:03 Speaker 4: talk about a presence. Even watching the old deep footage

15:07 Speaker 4: I have of him, he walks into the arena and

15:11 Speaker 4: your eyes are just drawn to him. You're captivated, and

15:15 Speaker 4: he doesn't even have to say a word.

15:18 Speaker 5: So it's shocking to.

15:20 Speaker 4: Me that no one has done anything like book like

15:26 Speaker 4: major book wise or documentary wise on him. And to

15:31 Speaker 4: piggyback on what David said, I think it's because pro

15:33 Speaker 4: wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on negative,

15:40 Speaker 4: and there was a lot of negative with Ernie Ladd there.

15:43 Speaker 4: You couldn't do a dark side of the ring on

15:46 Speaker 4: Big Head. Yeah, you don't hear guys and shoot interviews

15:52 Speaker 4: go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd did this,

15:56 Speaker 4: so there isn't the notorious off.

16:00 Speaker 5: But man, you talk about a talent and a guy that.

16:06 Speaker 4: Could guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell

16:13 Speaker 4: out the Sportatorium.

16:15 Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I'd always been kind

16:19 Speaker 1: of aware of him, but didn't know much about him

16:20 Speaker 1: until reading and reading the book.

16:23 Speaker 4: Ernie, Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the

16:29 Speaker 4: word it is thrown around.

16:32 Speaker 1: Yeah it, yeah, yeah.

16:36 Speaker 5: Davidating, I'm what you're saying.

16:39 Speaker 2: I mean just his his physical presence.

16:42 Speaker 3: He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and

16:47 Speaker 3: and and of course then he would tell you I'm

16:49 Speaker 3: six foot nine, three hundred pounds you disintimidatingly yea.

16:54 Speaker 2: His words and his.

16:55 Speaker 1: Promos, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, David. I'm curious who who

17:01 Speaker 1: did your research for the book? Who who's included in

17:03 Speaker 1: the book? Who you think are and there may be

17:07 Speaker 1: multiple examples, anyone who you are surprised that people don't

17:11 Speaker 1: know more about. Is there anyone in the book who

17:14 Speaker 1: you feel like, Wow, this person really contributed a lot

17:18 Speaker 1: to professional wrestling, and it's actually surprising that people don't

17:22 Speaker 1: know more about this individual, or that they're not in

17:25 Speaker 1: the WWE Hall of Fame for example, or or any anybody.

17:28 Speaker 1: Do you feel that way about?

17:31 Speaker 2: Not really, I would.

17:33 Speaker 3: I would say, well, Ernie Ladd, for one, because the

17:36 Speaker 3: one thing that I didn't know about Ernie in the

17:40 Speaker 3: beginning was that in the mid South, Ernie was the

17:43 Speaker 3: first African American booker.

17:45 Speaker 2: Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler.

17:48 Speaker 3: I mean that shows the kind of confidence that Bill

17:51 Speaker 3: Watts had in him.

17:52 Speaker 2: To let him be a booker. Yeah, he was the first,

17:57 Speaker 2: so yet that surprised me.

17:59 Speaker 3: I would guess also in modern times now, I don't

18:02 Speaker 3: think people.

18:04 Speaker 2: People understand Ron Killings are true. Now.

18:10 Speaker 3: I think they see the comedy side, and that's what

18:13 Speaker 3: WWE wants him to keep portraying this this comedic person.

18:19 Speaker 3: But Ron Killings was like the first African American to

18:24 Speaker 3: have that n w A title, true, and I don't

18:28 Speaker 3: think people know that. And so, you know, and I

18:32 Speaker 3: thought he was going they were gonna let him be

18:34 Speaker 3: Run Killings when he came out and cut his hair

18:36 Speaker 3: and everything and said, you know, put some respect on

18:40 Speaker 3: my name.

18:40 Speaker 2: I'm Run Killings. I'm not a joke.

18:42 Speaker 3: And all of a sudden they killed that angle because

18:47 Speaker 3: it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,

18:49 Speaker 3: and it may have been.

18:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan

18:54 Speaker 1: with what they're doing with him, which is a which

18:56 Speaker 1: is a terrible shame because he's incredible, He's incredibly talented.

19:00 Speaker 4: Yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree Ron

19:04 Speaker 4: Killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth is

19:09 Speaker 4: so funny. Truth is so funny, and it's like truth

19:14 Speaker 4: can work, you know. So I used to watch the

19:19 Speaker 4: TNA weekly pay per views every week when you had

19:24 Speaker 4: to run for nine to ninety nine, and he had

19:28 Speaker 4: matches with AJ Styles and you tell people that and

19:33 Speaker 4: they're like, okay, so what was it like a five

19:37 Speaker 4: to seven minute match, And oh no, they were for

19:43 Speaker 4: ten fifteen minutes in a one hour, two hour program

19:47 Speaker 4: and they.

19:47 Speaker 5: Mayn't event it and they tore the grounds down.

19:52 Speaker 4: So I think right now, I dare say, Ron aren't

19:58 Speaker 4: truth has a very implicated legacy, and it's not his fault, right,

20:04 Speaker 4: We'll just see the comedy guy, and they blew sight

20:08 Speaker 4: of the matches he had with guys like Jeff Jarrett, Raven,

20:14 Speaker 4: AJ Stontails, Christopher Daniels. Near the end of it NA, Ron,

20:21 Speaker 4: him and Christopher Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man

20:25 Speaker 4: match on pay per view that should have been a

20:29 Speaker 4: top match that year.

20:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah. There's a lot to there's

20:35 Speaker 1: a lot to Ron killings that a lot of fans

20:38 Speaker 1: don't realize, and you know, and to be able to

20:40 Speaker 1: still perform in the ring at what is he now

20:43 Speaker 1: fifty three. I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,

20:46 Speaker 1: he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah.

20:50 Speaker 5: He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.

20:52 Speaker 1: Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans

20:56 Speaker 1: for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,

20:59 Speaker 1: you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding

21:03 Speaker 1: people to this, right I mean, is do you have

21:06 Speaker 1: plans for a fourth edition or I don't know if

21:08 Speaker 1: you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's

21:11 Speaker 1: a lot to do, I know.

21:12 Speaker 4: But.

21:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,

21:17 Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on

21:20 Speaker 3: and on and unless it's.

21:21 Speaker 2: Something really compelling.

21:24 Speaker 3: At least in my thought right now, I thought the

21:27 Speaker 3: only thing that could be added was the tag team champion,

21:32 Speaker 3: So I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,

21:36 Speaker 3: that's that's kind of gonna put the punctuation on it.

21:39 Speaker 3: And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans

21:44 Speaker 3: right now for a fourth edition, but you never know.

21:46 Speaker 1: Right right, by the way, so this is not this

21:50 Speaker 1: is not your first book, or while it's a third edition,

21:53 Speaker 1: but I mean you've you've written other books, right, can

21:55 Speaker 1: you can you tell us too this a little bit

21:57 Speaker 1: because I'm curious to learn more about your background because,

21:59 Speaker 1: as I said, you know, you're an author and journalist,

22:01 Speaker 1: You've you've done a lot of other things too. I

22:03 Speaker 1: was looking at your website and I'm curious about more

22:06 Speaker 1: about your career in a broader sense.

22:10 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I

22:17 Speaker 3: was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news

22:24 Speaker 3: director when I was when I was actually in college,

22:28 Speaker 3: I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job.

22:35 Speaker 2: Even before I had graduated.

22:37 Speaker 3: My internship at the radio station in Columbia, South Carolina,

22:40 Speaker 3: uh turned into a job for me. And so for

22:45 Speaker 3: the last twenty years, I've been a journalism professor because

22:50 Speaker 3: you don't really, you didn't really make a lot of

22:54 Speaker 3: money being a journalist until you get, you know, to

22:57 Speaker 3: the level of NBC National or ABC, you know, one

23:02 Speaker 3: of the national networks, not really making a whole lot

23:06 Speaker 3: of money. And not that it's about money, because you know,

23:10 Speaker 3: you should do what you enjoy doing.

23:12 Speaker 2: But yeah, so.

23:14 Speaker 3: I've been a college professor for the last twenty years.

23:18 Speaker 2: I have a PhD in communication, So yeah, that's that's

23:24 Speaker 2: that's sort of men in an overview.

23:29 Speaker 1: Yeah.

23:29 Speaker 2: One of my books is Public Enemy number one.

23:33 Speaker 3: Public Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.

23:36 Speaker 2: It was on the group Public Enemy and also wrote Yes.

23:44 Speaker 3: Yes, that was a research study on a couple of

23:50 Speaker 3: their music videos.

23:52 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric

23:55 Speaker 1: and I both would be interested in reading that. Very

23:57 Speaker 1: very cool.

23:58 Speaker 6: Huh Yeah, guys Enemy fan Fight the Power jh yep

24:06 Speaker 6: video directed by Spike Lee.

24:08 Speaker 5: I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,

24:12 Speaker 5: films of Spike Lee.

24:14 Speaker 1: Yeah. When this show was on in afternoons and we

24:17 Speaker 1: were doing a lot of politics. When I was an

24:19 Speaker 1: Afternoon Drive, I would Fight the Power was one of

24:21 Speaker 1: my go tos. I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely.

24:26 Speaker 1: Oh that's very cool, very interesting David. Wow.

24:29 Speaker 3: Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite? Yes, oh, yes,

24:36 Speaker 3: the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came out I

24:40 Speaker 3: think in twenty nineteen.

24:42 Speaker 4: Love that movie, David, Before you get into that. When

24:46 Speaker 4: Matt was on Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment

24:50 Speaker 4: called classic film Reviews, and for in February we would

24:55 Speaker 4: do a black history segment where I covered African America films.

25:00 Speaker 5: We actually covered Shaft.

25:02 Speaker 4: And super Fly and that get did a lot of

25:07 Speaker 4: conversation that I thought was very good.

25:11 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,

25:14 Speaker 1: not between Eric and I or anything, but but it

25:16 Speaker 1: was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether

25:19 Speaker 1: those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It

25:22 Speaker 1: did spark a lot of conversation that there was very

25:24 Speaker 1: positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.

25:27 Speaker 1: So now I'm curious, David, so what led you into

25:29 Speaker 1: being a pro wrestling fan? How did you become because

25:32 Speaker 1: you I assume since you were a kid, right, I

25:33 Speaker 1: feel like most of us get hooked on this one.

25:35 Speaker 1: We're children.

25:37 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.

25:40 Speaker 3: I mean my family watched it, so it was always

25:43 Speaker 3: in the household.

25:44 Speaker 2: Mom, dad, grandmother, I.

25:45 Speaker 3: Mean, everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little

25:50 Speaker 3: lifelong thing for me.

25:52 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights Made Event

25:56 Speaker 1: premiered on NBC and I watched the first you know,

26:00 Speaker 1: I had seen wrestling before that. I was never particularly

26:02 Speaker 1: into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday's

26:05 Speaker 1: main event and something about it hooked me. In fact,

26:07 Speaker 1: I remember one of the matches. It was a squash match.

26:10 Speaker 1: It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around. I have

26:13 Speaker 1: no recollection of who his opponent was, and I just

26:15 Speaker 1: remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting. He's

26:17 Speaker 1: just beating the heck out of that guy. I think

26:20 Speaker 1: the I think the big angle that night was the

26:23 Speaker 1: Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation in the

26:28 Speaker 1: Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was that was

26:30 Speaker 1: what hooked me. And then you know, I've I've been

26:32 Speaker 1: hooked on it ever since and now Eric and I

26:34 Speaker 1: even do a podcast together about it called Tough Pumps.

26:37 Speaker 1: Did I mean, did you ever, like when you started

26:40 Speaker 1: your career in journalism, did you already have ideas about

26:42 Speaker 1: writing writing books like this actually writing about pro wrestling.

26:47 Speaker 2: No, not at all.

26:49 Speaker 3: And like I said, this was really just kind of

26:54 Speaker 3: trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and

26:58 Speaker 3: you know this, this wasn't something that he was really

27:02 Speaker 3: into as well in terms of writing.

27:06 Speaker 2: His books at the time was hip hop related.

27:12 Speaker 3: He wrote The United States Versus Hip Hop when they

27:15 Speaker 3: were looking at Public Enemy and Luke Two Live Crew and.

27:21 Speaker 2: NWA and those guys, and there was.

27:26 Speaker 3: Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the

27:29 Speaker 3: FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they

27:33 Speaker 3: sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning

27:37 Speaker 3: letter to the record labels about those groups. And so

27:41 Speaker 3: that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,

27:44 Speaker 3: you can't, you can't do that. So that was the

27:46 Speaker 3: kind of stuff that my brother was writing about and.

27:50 Speaker 2: He started he wrote that first.

27:53 Speaker 3: Book in nineteen ninety nine. It came out in nineteen

27:57 Speaker 3: ninety nine. He started working on it in nineteen ninety

27:59 Speaker 3: eight because Bobo Brazil died earlier that year, and then

28:05 Speaker 3: when Jyd died in like July of that year, it

28:09 Speaker 3: touched him so much that he started doing the research

28:12 Speaker 3: and wrote that book.

28:14 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so that led you to to carrying on

28:17 Speaker 1: that legacy. That's that's remarkable. Now do you I mean,

28:21 Speaker 1: how dialed in are you to the current product? Do

28:23 Speaker 1: you do you watch every week? Do you keep up

28:25 Speaker 1: with everything or you know, are you are you a

28:28 Speaker 1: somewhat lapsed fan like some people are, or what's what's

28:31 Speaker 1: your current level of engagement with wrestling?

28:35 Speaker 2: I try to keep up with it as much as

28:37 Speaker 2: I can.

28:39 Speaker 3: I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,

28:44 Speaker 3: especially with with with a W back out there now

28:47 Speaker 3: and you know, with having competition, but I do try

28:50 Speaker 3: to try to keep up as much as I can.

28:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,

28:56 Speaker 1: Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.

28:58 Speaker 1: We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.

29:00 Speaker 1: We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that

29:03 Speaker 1: we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to

29:05 Speaker 1: keep up with everything online. But as far as what

29:08 Speaker 1: we're actually watching, it's, yeah, it is. It's a lot.

29:12 Speaker 1: It's a lot of content to keep up with.

29:14 Speaker 5: So question for David.

29:17 Speaker 4: Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,

29:22 Speaker 4: I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.

29:25 Speaker 4: What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?

29:32 Speaker 1: Good question.

29:34 Speaker 3: I would have to say when I saw in person

29:41 Speaker 3: rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him

29:47 Speaker 3: as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came

29:50 Speaker 3: to a y m c A in my hometown and

29:54 Speaker 3: I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle and

29:56 Speaker 3: and that was great for me and the.

30:00 Speaker 2: He was wrestling the Great Kabuki.

30:05 Speaker 3: Fans now may see the I can't think of the

30:09 Speaker 3: female's name now, the Japanese female now who spits uh

30:14 Speaker 3: bas oscar? Yes, yes, that came from the Great Kabuki

30:20 Speaker 3: who used to spit that mist in the person's eyes.

30:23 Speaker 3: And you know I saw them wrestle and that was

30:28 Speaker 3: that was like my earliest memory.

30:30 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.

30:36 Speaker 4: Because I hear so many times p wrestling fans say

30:39 Speaker 4: the Great Muda when they talk about the Green mess.

30:45 Speaker 5: Or to Jerry, and it's like and me.

30:48 Speaker 4: I, I don't want to toot my own horn, I

30:51 Speaker 4: am I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,

30:57 Speaker 4: it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green

31:02 Speaker 4: mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when

31:08 Speaker 4: he did the when he did that, it wasn't it

31:12 Speaker 4: wasn't Great mood A.

31:14 Speaker 5: Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you

31:20 Speaker 5: Great Kabuki.

31:24 Speaker 1: Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The

31:28 Speaker 1: time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the

31:30 Speaker 1: top of the hour. But David, I want to make

31:33 Speaker 1: sure everyone knows again where's uh, where's the best place

31:36 Speaker 1: to keep up with everything that you're doing. And of

31:39 Speaker 1: course the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,

31:43 Speaker 1: the third edition which is currently available, where people can

31:46 Speaker 1: get that. Anything you want our listeners to know about

31:48 Speaker 1: how to find you and follow you and connect with you.

31:52 Speaker 3: Probably the best way is my website, which is David L.

31:58 Speaker 3: Shabaz and my name is there, so just just put

32:03 Speaker 3: an L in at s H A B A z

32:06 Speaker 3: z dot com because that's a central hub and you

32:11 Speaker 3: can find out about me. I have a little about

32:13 Speaker 3: section there and all of my titles as a book

32:17 Speaker 3: titles that is as well as if they want to

32:21 Speaker 3: order it. You can order the book from the website

32:24 Speaker 3: and it has different online options, whether.

32:27 Speaker 2: You want Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, or.

32:31 Speaker 3: My author's website where you can get it which is

32:36 Speaker 3: actually a little cheaper. I have a different distributor who

32:40 Speaker 3: does that one, so it's it's it's actually a little

32:42 Speaker 3: cheaper than the other routes. But yeah, through my website

32:46 Speaker 3: is probably the easiest way.

32:47 Speaker 2: But it's it's.

32:48 Speaker 3: Available uh online and in bookstores everywhere.

32:53 Speaker 1: Oh, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining

32:56 Speaker 1: us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,

32:59 Speaker 1: the book is great. I love the book, and uh

33:02 Speaker 1: and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for

33:04 Speaker 1: the segment.

33:06 Speaker 4: I just feel like it was awesome to talk with

33:11 Speaker 4: someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.

33:19 Speaker 5: You can tell it's a labor a love, and I

33:23 Speaker 5: love what.

33:24 Speaker 4: I really like what you said about not about not

33:29 Speaker 4: being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt and I

33:34 Speaker 4: have said this on our podcast several times. In pro wrestling,

33:38 Speaker 4: I think we're even guilty of it. We focus on

33:43 Speaker 4: the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious people love

33:50 Speaker 4: the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it isn't all bad,

33:57 Speaker 4: you know there, It isn't all awful there For every

34:03 Speaker 4: you know, I hate to bring them up, for every

34:05 Speaker 4: Chris Ben maaw there's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.

34:14 Speaker 4: It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen

34:20 Speaker 4: to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.

34:27 Speaker 5: Champions like Booker t and.

34:31 Speaker 4: Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,

34:39 Speaker 4: and the way that you've chosen to do it with

34:42 Speaker 4: such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.

34:48 Speaker 5: So thank you for that, David.

34:50 Speaker 3: Oh, no problem, thank you, I mean, And that's that

34:53 Speaker 3: was the spirit that my brother started with. I mean

34:57 Speaker 3: when he when he wrote it, it was trying to

34:59 Speaker 3: be celebratory of the wrestlers, and people were asking him

35:04 Speaker 3: at the time, uh, questions about racism and that kind

35:08 Speaker 3: of thing, and he was like, this, this is this

35:10 Speaker 3: book is not about racism and wrestling. It's just trying

35:13 Speaker 3: to praise those wrestlers and give them their credit.

35:17 Speaker 2: Because that's that was his initial drive.

35:20 Speaker 3: He saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they

35:26 Speaker 3: just died, you know, and and it's like there's very

35:29 Speaker 3: little coverage, like nobody's saying anything about it, and so

35:34 Speaker 3: that's what started him writing. It's always been in that

35:37 Speaker 3: spirit of positivity and just trying to shed light and

35:39 Speaker 3: trying to enlighten people.

35:41 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is excellent.

35:44 Speaker 5: Negativity in anything, right, It's easy to it's.

35:48 Speaker 1: Easy to be easy. Yeah.

35:51 Speaker 4: Yeah. The positivity of it is amazing and really, again,

35:59 Speaker 4: just I've loved this entire interview. With you to hear

36:05 Speaker 4: the the positive view and the fact that you brought

36:10 Speaker 4: up Ernie Ladd being an African American booker, not just

36:13 Speaker 4: in mid Now, but in general. It just adds to

36:19 Speaker 4: the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David, maybe if I

36:21 Speaker 4: can put a little idea in your head Ernie and

36:25 Speaker 4: Ernie book.

36:27 Speaker 2: I'll consider it.

36:29 Speaker 3: He definitely is one of those compelling figures. And you know,

36:37 Speaker 3: and and he and several other guys around that period.

36:41 Speaker 3: You know, they wrestled initially in the off season to

36:45 Speaker 3: stay in shape for football. But Ernie said he made

36:49 Speaker 3: more money in wrestling, so that's why he stopped playing football.

36:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that was that was interesting.

36:57 Speaker 1: That is in the book, and yeah, I thought that

36:59 Speaker 1: was pretty interesting. Well, we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.

37:02 Speaker 1: But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World

37:05 Speaker 1: Champions third Edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much

37:09 Speaker 1: for joining us, and we'll definitely talk again in the future.

37:11 Speaker 1: This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.

37:13 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

37:15 Speaker 1: You got it, you got it. And Eric, as always,

37:17 Speaker 1: thank you, my friend.

37:19 Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Matt Thank you, David.

37:21 Speaker 1: All right, guys, thank you, and uh for those of

37:24 Speaker 1: you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.

37:27 Speaker 1: Don't go away.