Field Dispatch
David L. Shabazz | Matt Connarton Unleashed
Speaker 1: But we do have a couple of fine gentlemen here
Speaker 1: joining us via Microsoft Teams. So I'll introduce first someone
Speaker 1: longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,
Speaker 1: how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,
Speaker 1: Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and
Speaker 1: Eric's been a part of this show off and on
Speaker 1: for years now, years and years. So but I did
Speaker 1: there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co
Speaker 1: host the hour one segment with me this morning, because
Speaker 1: we also have with us David Shabbaz is with us,
Speaker 1: and David welcome to the show. Of course. David is
Speaker 1: an author and a journalist, and of course is the
Speaker 1: author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
Speaker 1: the third edition. And so David, we're excited to talk
Speaker 1: to you because Eric and I, of course we're both
Speaker 1: lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and so I was thrilled
Speaker 1: when you reached out to us about coming on the
Speaker 1: coming on the show. Oh, and it's great to have here,
Speaker 1: and congratulations on the third edition of the book. That's
Speaker 1: pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, and I'm glad to be here with.
Speaker 1: You both absolutely, So. The first thing I'd like to
Speaker 1: know from you is why did you Why did you
Speaker 1: write the book? What was your inspiration for doing this?
Speaker 3: Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to
Speaker 3: keep it a little short. This particular book, I really
Speaker 3: wrote this book.
Speaker 2: To further my brother's legacy. My brother Julian.
Speaker 3: Was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 3: and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,
Speaker 3: I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's
Speaker 3: Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook
Speaker 3: that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying
Speaker 3: tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition
Speaker 3: out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be
Speaker 3: good because there had been a few more wrestlers at
Speaker 3: that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who
Speaker 3: were profiled, and a few more had actually won the
Speaker 3: title in twenty two, and so I put that second
Speaker 3: edition out, And this is the third, which is larger.
Speaker 3: It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,
Speaker 3: and this one is a little more of me, if
Speaker 3: you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.
Speaker 1: Oh that's outstanding, and I really like the way that
Speaker 1: you open the book with, well, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: information in this book, but you open it with that scene.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly as well.
Speaker 1: You go back to that scene where Booker T and
Speaker 1: you gave the whole backstory, which is great. You go
Speaker 1: into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular. Booker
Speaker 1: T is in WWE?
Speaker 2: Was it?
Speaker 1: Had it switched out? I forget? Was it still wwfor
Speaker 1: had it changed? At that point?
Speaker 4: The seeing the WWE switch happened in two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It
Speaker 2: was Matt was two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha?
Speaker 5: If it was the infamous Booker T Triple.
Speaker 4: H Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two
Speaker 4: thousand and three. And I want to say, as a
Speaker 4: Triple H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes
Speaker 4: on his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,
Speaker 4: and I'm sorry to go into the woods here, I
Speaker 4: remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,
Speaker 4: being uncomfortable. I mean, sorry to say this, but he
Speaker 4: stopped short of calling Booker t boy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some
Speaker 1: racial overtones to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke and
Speaker 1: and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it was
Speaker 1: intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective it was,
Speaker 1: but it was not, you know what I mean, But
Speaker 1: but it was it was not subtle. And I thought that, David.
Speaker 1: I thought that that was a perfect way to open
Speaker 1: the book talking about that specific promo and that storyline,
Speaker 1: and of course for wrestling fans who are are familiar
Speaker 1: with that whole uh, that whole angle, we know that
Speaker 1: the hero did not prevail at WrestleMania and did not
Speaker 1: win the title, which a lot of people at the
Speaker 1: time thought was a mistake and many people still think
Speaker 1: that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you
Speaker 1: when you opened the book with that scene, was it
Speaker 1: was it obvious to you that that was the one
Speaker 1: to go with or or did you have to kind
Speaker 1: of make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if
Speaker 1: you were to ask me about a racially tinged, to
Speaker 1: put it lightly angle in quote unquote modern day WWE,
Speaker 1: I would That's probably the first one I would think of.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, I mean, were there other Were there
Speaker 1: other options as far as what the opening scene was
Speaker 1: going to be in the book to kind of to
Speaker 1: kind of set up the book.
Speaker 3: No, not at all, because the title of the book
Speaker 3: is pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is
Speaker 3: saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,
Speaker 3: and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,
Speaker 3: that was there was no other choice that was the
Speaker 3: appropriate text to use for this.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, no, thats no, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know in Booker T is such a great talent too,
Speaker 1: and he was a you know that I used to
Speaker 1: love that catchphrase five time, five time, five times, five times,
Speaker 1: five time world champion.
Speaker 3: And would you actually said six times that promo?
Speaker 1: You do? You pointed that out in the book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which was.
Speaker 4: Great, David a question, And actually I wanted to do
Speaker 4: something to the Booker T story.
Speaker 5: I've actually heard through various shoot interviews.
Speaker 4: That Rick Flair had a lot to do with that promo.
Speaker 3: I mean, because Rick Rick was there in the ring
Speaker 3: with Triple H though he didn't say anything.
Speaker 2: But but he's there in his corner.
Speaker 4: I mean a lot of There are a few African
Speaker 4: Americans that have said and even Caucasian wrestlers have said
Speaker 4: Rick Flair is by proxy a very uh I don't
Speaker 4: want to say racist individual, but definitely has said racist statements.
Speaker 4: And I have heard that that notorious promo Rick Flair
Speaker 4: kind of fed Triple H things to say at that.
Speaker 5: I think it was, I want to say, and I
Speaker 5: could be wrong.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory
Speaker 4: can serve you horribly.
Speaker 5: I was Bruce Pritchard.
Speaker 4: That said it on something to wrestle when they were
Speaker 4: talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5: I believe it was.
Speaker 4: Yes, I believe he said that Vince and Rick were
Speaker 4: kind of behind.
Speaker 1: That wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what do you say, David.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether
Speaker 3: that was true or not.
Speaker 2: I do know.
Speaker 3: I'm a large segment of the black community really likes
Speaker 3: Rick Flair. I mean, I don't think that Rick would
Speaker 3: purposely try to insult, you know, his fan base like that,
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 1: That is a good point you make David, because the
Speaker 1: hip hop community really in a big way, strangely late
Speaker 1: in his career, but really embraced has embraced Ric Flair
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. So that's yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: an interesting point.
Speaker 5: Too racist by any stretch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to say that, you know, and David,
Speaker 4: I'm sure can back this up.
Speaker 5: Uh pro wrestling and.
Speaker 4: Up until I would say probably the late aes when
Speaker 4: w c W made Ron uh Ron Simmons world champion
Speaker 4: was a good boys network so to speak. It really
Speaker 4: wrestling has a very complicated history with African Americans and
Speaker 4: it's very sad. I mean to the point where you
Speaker 4: had a very great talent in w W E name.
Speaker 5: Bad News Brown.
Speaker 4: Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler, but
Speaker 4: when he Alan Cosage. But when he got to WWE,
Speaker 4: they made in this militant African American from Harlem. I
Speaker 4: mean things like that, where you hear guys that were
Speaker 4: in Stampede that's like no Brown could go.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was his page in Stampede.
Speaker 1: Historically, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in
Speaker 1: in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say
Speaker 1: until recently, I mean, I think, I think wrestling has
Speaker 1: changed a lot, but but yeah, historically there has been
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.
Speaker 4: I guess my question David is going through all of that,
Speaker 4: did you was there ever? I guess anger that rose
Speaker 4: up in you when you would I'm sure in your
Speaker 4: research you encountered this. Was there ever, that anger that
Speaker 4: you're like, Wow, this is awful, this is horrible. I mean,
Speaker 4: there's long been the story of Bill Watts in.
Speaker 5: A bathroom dropping.
Speaker 4: That's about Junkyard Dog, and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets
Speaker 4: and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE
Speaker 4: then WWA.
Speaker 5: So was there ever a sense of anger?
Speaker 4: And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out?
Speaker 2: No? Not at all.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to get off track, but I
Speaker 3: really hate.
Speaker 2: It when people are driven by negative energy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,
Speaker 3: and I don't think that's sustainable.
Speaker 2: And I don't like.
Speaker 3: My focus comes from my desire and what I want
Speaker 3: to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say,
Speaker 3: my internal worth and internal value and my focus is
Speaker 3: strong enough. I don't need somebody on the outside to
Speaker 3: make me upset to make me want to do something
Speaker 3: or excel in it. I really hate when people say
Speaker 3: I'm using my haters as my motivators.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know.
Speaker 3: That's negative energy for me. So no, that was never
Speaker 3: really anything that drove me. And like you said, I've
Speaker 3: been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost fifty six.
Speaker 3: I've been watching wrestling all of my life. So yes,
Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of those stories. I've seen the racism.
Speaker 3: So it wasn't really anything that really surprised me in
Speaker 3: a way that would make me really upset about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, because the book itself is very positive.
Speaker 1: You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,
Speaker 1: you you share the scene about a booker T and
Speaker 1: Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,
Speaker 1: you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who
Speaker 1: had become many world champions or tag team champions and
Speaker 1: so forth, and and it's a very positive read. I
Speaker 1: was particularly I I especially enjoyed the part about uh
Speaker 1: Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on
Speaker 1: television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,
Speaker 1: and I just thought it was so cool, you know,
Speaker 1: and they a w c W at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: they they did make a kind of a big deal
Speaker 1: about you know, Ron Simmons is the first black world Champion.
Speaker 1: But it's funny though in the moment watching that, I
Speaker 1: wasn't even thinking about that. I was just thinking because
Speaker 1: I was I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it
Speaker 1: was a surprise, uh, because he was substituting for was
Speaker 1: it it was Sting, right, it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So so I thought the whole thing was so cool,
Speaker 1: and I thought the finish of that was just really
Speaker 1: cool too. Just everything about it was awesome, and I
Speaker 1: just remember I popped for it watching it on television.
Speaker 1: But but that was one of my favorite parts because
Speaker 1: that was a moment that really connected with me. And then, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and of course Ron Simmons went on to
Speaker 1: have a great career eventually in u w WUS for Ruke,
Speaker 1: and you know, just everything everything he went on to
Speaker 1: do was amazing. But but that was such a that
Speaker 1: was such a huge moment, and uh, and I love that,
Speaker 1: and and I love the way you you know, the
Speaker 1: way you really took the time to go into a
Speaker 1: lot of detail giving the histories. Some of these black
Speaker 1: wrestlers were people I'd never even heard of, and some
Speaker 1: of them, obviously I was very familiar with, and some
Speaker 1: I was kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd, for example.
Speaker 1: I knew who Ernie Ladd was, didn't know much about him.
Speaker 1: Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him
Speaker 1: reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.
Speaker 4: I'm I just wanted to say, I'm shocked that there
Speaker 4: hasn't been something more in depth done about Earning Lad.
Speaker 5: Just you want to talk about not just.
Speaker 4: To say call him an African American Pro wrestling champion
Speaker 4: is in my opinion, it trivializes him because he is
Speaker 4: paramount in the territory days.
Speaker 5: He is equally.
Speaker 4: A top I would say, top ten talent all time
Speaker 4: in the territory days. If it wasn't for him, you,
Speaker 4: I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near as
Speaker 4: successful as it was.
Speaker 5: Him and Jyde carried that promotion.
Speaker 4: Because if they were the top faces and to get
Speaker 4: heels over like the Free Birds, Ted DBIASI and all
Speaker 4: those guys. You need powerhouse faces. Ernie Ladd just you
Speaker 4: talk about a presence. Even watching the old deep footage
Speaker 4: I have of him, he walks into the arena and
Speaker 4: your eyes are just drawn to him. You're captivated, and
Speaker 4: he doesn't even have to say a word.
Speaker 5: So it's shocking to.
Speaker 4: Me that no one has done anything like book like
Speaker 4: major book wise or documentary wise on him. And to
Speaker 4: piggyback on what David said, I think it's because pro
Speaker 4: wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on negative,
Speaker 4: and there was a lot of negative with Ernie Ladd there.
Speaker 4: You couldn't do a dark side of the ring on
Speaker 4: Big Head. Yeah, you don't hear guys and shoot interviews
Speaker 4: go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd did this,
Speaker 4: so there isn't the notorious off.
Speaker 5: But man, you talk about a talent and a guy that.
Speaker 4: Could guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell
Speaker 4: out the Sportatorium.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I'd always been kind
Speaker 1: of aware of him, but didn't know much about him
Speaker 1: until reading and reading the book.
Speaker 4: Ernie, Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the
Speaker 4: word it is thrown around.
Speaker 1: Yeah it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Davidating, I'm what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I mean just his his physical presence.
Speaker 3: He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and
Speaker 3: and and of course then he would tell you I'm
Speaker 3: six foot nine, three hundred pounds you disintimidatingly yea.
Speaker 2: His words and his.
Speaker 1: Promos, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, David. I'm curious who who
Speaker 1: did your research for the book? Who who's included in
Speaker 1: the book? Who you think are and there may be
Speaker 1: multiple examples, anyone who you are surprised that people don't
Speaker 1: know more about. Is there anyone in the book who
Speaker 1: you feel like, Wow, this person really contributed a lot
Speaker 1: to professional wrestling, and it's actually surprising that people don't
Speaker 1: know more about this individual, or that they're not in
Speaker 1: the WWE Hall of Fame for example, or or any anybody.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that way about?
Speaker 2: Not really, I would.
Speaker 3: I would say, well, Ernie Ladd, for one, because the
Speaker 3: one thing that I didn't know about Ernie in the
Speaker 3: beginning was that in the mid South, Ernie was the
Speaker 3: first African American booker.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler.
Speaker 3: I mean that shows the kind of confidence that Bill
Speaker 3: Watts had in him.
Speaker 2: To let him be a booker. Yeah, he was the first,
Speaker 2: so yet that surprised me.
Speaker 3: I would guess also in modern times now, I don't
Speaker 3: think people.
Speaker 2: People understand Ron Killings are true. Now.
Speaker 3: I think they see the comedy side, and that's what
Speaker 3: WWE wants him to keep portraying this this comedic person.
Speaker 3: But Ron Killings was like the first African American to
Speaker 3: have that n w A title, true, and I don't
Speaker 3: think people know that. And so, you know, and I
Speaker 3: thought he was going they were gonna let him be
Speaker 3: Run Killings when he came out and cut his hair
Speaker 3: and everything and said, you know, put some respect on
Speaker 3: my name.
Speaker 2: I'm Run Killings. I'm not a joke.
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden they killed that angle because
Speaker 3: it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,
Speaker 3: and it may have been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan
Speaker 1: with what they're doing with him, which is a which
Speaker 1: is a terrible shame because he's incredible, He's incredibly talented.
Speaker 4: Yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree Ron
Speaker 4: Killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth is
Speaker 4: so funny. Truth is so funny, and it's like truth
Speaker 4: can work, you know. So I used to watch the
Speaker 4: TNA weekly pay per views every week when you had
Speaker 4: to run for nine to ninety nine, and he had
Speaker 4: matches with AJ Styles and you tell people that and
Speaker 4: they're like, okay, so what was it like a five
Speaker 4: to seven minute match, And oh no, they were for
Speaker 4: ten fifteen minutes in a one hour, two hour program
Speaker 4: and they.
Speaker 5: Mayn't event it and they tore the grounds down.
Speaker 4: So I think right now, I dare say, Ron aren't
Speaker 4: truth has a very implicated legacy, and it's not his fault, right,
Speaker 4: We'll just see the comedy guy, and they blew sight
Speaker 4: of the matches he had with guys like Jeff Jarrett, Raven,
Speaker 4: AJ Stontails, Christopher Daniels. Near the end of it NA, Ron,
Speaker 4: him and Christopher Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man
Speaker 4: match on pay per view that should have been a
Speaker 4: top match that year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah. There's a lot to there's
Speaker 1: a lot to Ron killings that a lot of fans
Speaker 1: don't realize, and you know, and to be able to
Speaker 1: still perform in the ring at what is he now
Speaker 1: fifty three. I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,
Speaker 1: he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5: He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.
Speaker 1: Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans
Speaker 1: for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,
Speaker 1: you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding
Speaker 1: people to this, right I mean, is do you have
Speaker 1: plans for a fourth edition or I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: a lot to do, I know.
Speaker 4: But.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on
Speaker 3: and on and unless it's.
Speaker 2: Something really compelling.
Speaker 3: At least in my thought right now, I thought the
Speaker 3: only thing that could be added was the tag team champion,
Speaker 3: So I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: that's that's kind of gonna put the punctuation on it.
Speaker 3: And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans
Speaker 3: right now for a fourth edition, but you never know.
Speaker 1: Right right, by the way, so this is not this
Speaker 1: is not your first book, or while it's a third edition,
Speaker 1: but I mean you've you've written other books, right, can
Speaker 1: you can you tell us too this a little bit
Speaker 1: because I'm curious to learn more about your background because,
Speaker 1: as I said, you know, you're an author and journalist,
Speaker 1: You've you've done a lot of other things too. I
Speaker 1: was looking at your website and I'm curious about more
Speaker 1: about your career in a broader sense.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I
Speaker 3: was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news
Speaker 3: director when I was when I was actually in college,
Speaker 3: I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job.
Speaker 2: Even before I had graduated.
Speaker 3: My internship at the radio station in Columbia, South Carolina,
Speaker 3: uh turned into a job for me. And so for
Speaker 3: the last twenty years, I've been a journalism professor because
Speaker 3: you don't really, you didn't really make a lot of
Speaker 3: money being a journalist until you get, you know, to
Speaker 3: the level of NBC National or ABC, you know, one
Speaker 3: of the national networks, not really making a whole lot
Speaker 3: of money. And not that it's about money, because you know,
Speaker 3: you should do what you enjoy doing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so.
Speaker 3: I've been a college professor for the last twenty years.
Speaker 2: I have a PhD in communication, So yeah, that's that's
Speaker 2: that's sort of men in an overview.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of my books is Public Enemy number one.
Speaker 3: Public Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.
Speaker 2: It was on the group Public Enemy and also wrote Yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, that was a research study on a couple of
Speaker 3: their music videos.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric
Speaker 1: and I both would be interested in reading that. Very
Speaker 1: very cool.
Speaker 6: Huh Yeah, guys Enemy fan Fight the Power jh yep
Speaker 6: video directed by Spike Lee.
Speaker 5: I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 5: films of Spike Lee.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When this show was on in afternoons and we
Speaker 1: were doing a lot of politics. When I was an
Speaker 1: Afternoon Drive, I would Fight the Power was one of
Speaker 1: my go tos. I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Oh that's very cool, very interesting David. Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite? Yes, oh, yes,
Speaker 3: the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came out I
Speaker 3: think in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4: Love that movie, David, Before you get into that. When
Speaker 4: Matt was on Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment
Speaker 4: called classic film Reviews, and for in February we would
Speaker 4: do a black history segment where I covered African America films.
Speaker 5: We actually covered Shaft.
Speaker 4: And super Fly and that get did a lot of
Speaker 4: conversation that I thought was very good.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,
Speaker 1: not between Eric and I or anything, but but it
Speaker 1: was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether
Speaker 1: those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It
Speaker 1: did spark a lot of conversation that there was very
Speaker 1: positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.
Speaker 1: So now I'm curious, David, so what led you into
Speaker 1: being a pro wrestling fan? How did you become because
Speaker 1: you I assume since you were a kid, right, I
Speaker 1: feel like most of us get hooked on this one.
Speaker 1: We're children.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.
Speaker 3: I mean my family watched it, so it was always
Speaker 3: in the household.
Speaker 2: Mom, dad, grandmother, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little
Speaker 3: lifelong thing for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights Made Event
Speaker 1: premiered on NBC and I watched the first you know,
Speaker 1: I had seen wrestling before that. I was never particularly
Speaker 1: into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday's
Speaker 1: main event and something about it hooked me. In fact,
Speaker 1: I remember one of the matches. It was a squash match.
Speaker 1: It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around. I have
Speaker 1: no recollection of who his opponent was, and I just
Speaker 1: remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting. He's
Speaker 1: just beating the heck out of that guy. I think
Speaker 1: the I think the big angle that night was the
Speaker 1: Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation in the
Speaker 1: Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was that was
Speaker 1: what hooked me. And then you know, I've I've been
Speaker 1: hooked on it ever since and now Eric and I
Speaker 1: even do a podcast together about it called Tough Pumps.
Speaker 1: Did I mean, did you ever, like when you started
Speaker 1: your career in journalism, did you already have ideas about
Speaker 1: writing writing books like this actually writing about pro wrestling.
Speaker 2: No, not at all.
Speaker 3: And like I said, this was really just kind of
Speaker 3: trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and
Speaker 3: you know this, this wasn't something that he was really
Speaker 3: into as well in terms of writing.
Speaker 2: His books at the time was hip hop related.
Speaker 3: He wrote The United States Versus Hip Hop when they
Speaker 3: were looking at Public Enemy and Luke Two Live Crew and.
Speaker 2: NWA and those guys, and there was.
Speaker 3: Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the
Speaker 3: FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they
Speaker 3: sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning
Speaker 3: letter to the record labels about those groups. And so
Speaker 3: that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,
Speaker 3: you can't, you can't do that. So that was the
Speaker 3: kind of stuff that my brother was writing about and.
Speaker 2: He started he wrote that first.
Speaker 3: Book in nineteen ninety nine. It came out in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety nine. He started working on it in nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: eight because Bobo Brazil died earlier that year, and then
Speaker 3: when Jyd died in like July of that year, it
Speaker 3: touched him so much that he started doing the research
Speaker 3: and wrote that book.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so that led you to to carrying on
Speaker 1: that legacy. That's that's remarkable. Now do you I mean,
Speaker 1: how dialed in are you to the current product? Do
Speaker 1: you do you watch every week? Do you keep up
Speaker 1: with everything or you know, are you are you a
Speaker 1: somewhat lapsed fan like some people are, or what's what's
Speaker 1: your current level of engagement with wrestling?
Speaker 2: I try to keep up with it as much as
Speaker 2: I can.
Speaker 3: I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,
Speaker 3: especially with with with a W back out there now
Speaker 3: and you know, with having competition, but I do try
Speaker 3: to try to keep up as much as I can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,
Speaker 1: Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.
Speaker 1: We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.
Speaker 1: We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that
Speaker 1: we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to
Speaker 1: keep up with everything online. But as far as what
Speaker 1: we're actually watching, it's, yeah, it is. It's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of content to keep up with.
Speaker 5: So question for David.
Speaker 4: Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,
Speaker 4: I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.
Speaker 4: What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?
Speaker 1: Good question.
Speaker 3: I would have to say when I saw in person
Speaker 3: rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him
Speaker 3: as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came
Speaker 3: to a y m c A in my hometown and
Speaker 3: I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle and
Speaker 3: and that was great for me and the.
Speaker 2: He was wrestling the Great Kabuki.
Speaker 3: Fans now may see the I can't think of the
Speaker 3: female's name now, the Japanese female now who spits uh
Speaker 3: bas oscar? Yes, yes, that came from the Great Kabuki
Speaker 3: who used to spit that mist in the person's eyes.
Speaker 3: And you know I saw them wrestle and that was
Speaker 3: that was like my earliest memory.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.
Speaker 4: Because I hear so many times p wrestling fans say
Speaker 4: the Great Muda when they talk about the Green mess.
Speaker 5: Or to Jerry, and it's like and me.
Speaker 4: I, I don't want to toot my own horn, I
Speaker 4: am I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,
Speaker 4: it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green
Speaker 4: mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when
Speaker 4: he did the when he did that, it wasn't it
Speaker 4: wasn't Great mood A.
Speaker 5: Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you
Speaker 5: Great Kabuki.
Speaker 1: Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The
Speaker 1: time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the
Speaker 1: top of the hour. But David, I want to make
Speaker 1: sure everyone knows again where's uh, where's the best place
Speaker 1: to keep up with everything that you're doing. And of
Speaker 1: course the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
Speaker 1: the third edition which is currently available, where people can
Speaker 1: get that. Anything you want our listeners to know about
Speaker 1: how to find you and follow you and connect with you.
Speaker 3: Probably the best way is my website, which is David L.
Speaker 3: Shabaz and my name is there, so just just put
Speaker 3: an L in at s H A B A z
Speaker 3: z dot com because that's a central hub and you
Speaker 3: can find out about me. I have a little about
Speaker 3: section there and all of my titles as a book
Speaker 3: titles that is as well as if they want to
Speaker 3: order it. You can order the book from the website
Speaker 3: and it has different online options, whether.
Speaker 2: You want Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, or.
Speaker 3: My author's website where you can get it which is
Speaker 3: actually a little cheaper. I have a different distributor who
Speaker 3: does that one, so it's it's it's actually a little
Speaker 3: cheaper than the other routes. But yeah, through my website
Speaker 3: is probably the easiest way.
Speaker 2: But it's it's.
Speaker 3: Available uh online and in bookstores everywhere.
Speaker 1: Oh, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,
Speaker 1: the book is great. I love the book, and uh
Speaker 1: and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for
Speaker 1: the segment.
Speaker 4: I just feel like it was awesome to talk with
Speaker 4: someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.
Speaker 5: You can tell it's a labor a love, and I
Speaker 5: love what.
Speaker 4: I really like what you said about not about not
Speaker 4: being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt and I
Speaker 4: have said this on our podcast several times. In pro wrestling,
Speaker 4: I think we're even guilty of it. We focus on
Speaker 4: the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious people love
Speaker 4: the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it isn't all bad,
Speaker 4: you know there, It isn't all awful there For every
Speaker 4: you know, I hate to bring them up, for every
Speaker 4: Chris Ben maaw there's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.
Speaker 4: It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen
Speaker 4: to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.
Speaker 5: Champions like Booker t and.
Speaker 4: Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,
Speaker 4: and the way that you've chosen to do it with
Speaker 4: such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.
Speaker 5: So thank you for that, David.
Speaker 3: Oh, no problem, thank you, I mean, And that's that
Speaker 3: was the spirit that my brother started with. I mean
Speaker 3: when he when he wrote it, it was trying to
Speaker 3: be celebratory of the wrestlers, and people were asking him
Speaker 3: at the time, uh, questions about racism and that kind
Speaker 3: of thing, and he was like, this, this is this
Speaker 3: book is not about racism and wrestling. It's just trying
Speaker 3: to praise those wrestlers and give them their credit.
Speaker 2: Because that's that was his initial drive.
Speaker 3: He saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they
Speaker 3: just died, you know, and and it's like there's very
Speaker 3: little coverage, like nobody's saying anything about it, and so
Speaker 3: that's what started him writing. It's always been in that
Speaker 3: spirit of positivity and just trying to shed light and
Speaker 3: trying to enlighten people.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is excellent.
Speaker 5: Negativity in anything, right, It's easy to it's.
Speaker 1: Easy to be easy. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The positivity of it is amazing and really, again,
Speaker 4: just I've loved this entire interview. With you to hear
Speaker 4: the the positive view and the fact that you brought
Speaker 4: up Ernie Ladd being an African American booker, not just
Speaker 4: in mid Now, but in general. It just adds to
Speaker 4: the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David, maybe if I
Speaker 4: can put a little idea in your head Ernie and
Speaker 4: Ernie book.
Speaker 2: I'll consider it.
Speaker 3: He definitely is one of those compelling figures. And you know,
Speaker 3: and and he and several other guys around that period.
Speaker 3: You know, they wrestled initially in the off season to
Speaker 3: stay in shape for football. But Ernie said he made
Speaker 3: more money in wrestling, so that's why he stopped playing football.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that was that was interesting.
Speaker 1: That is in the book, and yeah, I thought that
Speaker 1: was pretty interesting. Well, we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.
Speaker 1: But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World
Speaker 1: Champions third Edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us, and we'll definitely talk again in the future.
Speaker 1: This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: You got it, you got it. And Eric, as always,
Speaker 1: thank you, my friend.
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Matt Thank you, David.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, thank you, and uh for those of
Speaker 1: you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.
Speaker 1: Don't go away.
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