Elizabeth Ropp and Jeff Davis | Matt Connarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: And right now we've got a couple of friends with us. Well, actually, so one of our friends here is someone we haven't seen on the show in a long time, actually. We were talking off air. I thought you had been here in the new studio since we moved over here, but apparently you have not, which shows just how long it's been. But Elizabeth Ropp, the acupunct is here.

0:17 Speaker 2: It's great to be back. Thank you.

0:19 Speaker 1: It's been literally years, years and years.

0:21 Speaker 3: Yeah.

0:21 Speaker 2: Pre-pandemic.

0:22 Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe it doesn't seem like it because we've run into you other places, but yeah, it's shocking to me that it's been that long. Do you still call yourself the acupunct?

0:32 Speaker 2: I am an acupunct among a few acupuncts.

0:34 Speaker 1: Oh, you are an acupunct. See, I thought you were the acupunct.

0:37 Speaker 2: No, I'm not the acupunct.

0:38 Speaker 4: I'm one of the few acupuncts who work at the Manchester Acupuncture Studio.

0:43 Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

0:44 Speaker 4: Manchester Acupuncture Studio is at the Eastside Plaza up on Hanover Street.

0:48 Speaker 1: See, I had some ideas for trademarks and stuff I was going to run by, but now that I know that you're not the acupunct, I guess that'll go.

0:53 Speaker 2: No, acupunct is a term....

0:56 Speaker 4: I mean, I could be, but I think there are a lot, I have a lot of colleagues who would take issue with that. So it's a term that has been utilized amongst community acupuncturists for decades now. So Manchester acupuncture studio, if, if, if you're listening and you've not heard of us or have you not thought about us, we're a low cost affordable community acupuncture clinic. And we're part of a kind of a national movement of acupuncturists who choose to practice this way. low-cost group setting, and we call ourselves acupuncts.

1:29 Speaker 4: And that term came from an acupuncturist that I know in Portland, Oregon, who kind of.

1:34 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Yep, yep.

1:36 Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, and you brought an associate with you. I'll let you introduce this gentleman over here.

1:42 Speaker 4: Yes, I brought along my good friend, an award-winning licensed drug counselor, Jeff Davis, from.

1:51 Speaker 2: Manchester Mental Health.

1:53 Speaker 4: Excellent.

1:53 Speaker 1: Welcome Jeff.

1:54 Speaker 2: An all around amazing person. Okay.

1:56 Speaker 4: And also one of, so I'm a trainer of ear acupuncture. Jeff is an acupuncture detoxification specialist.

2:02 Speaker 1: Okay.

2:03 Speaker 4: And he trains with me and my boss now from Andy Wegman from Manchester Acupuncture Studio.

2:07 Speaker 1: Oh, no kidding. Oh, well, welcome Jeff. Um, yeah. So tell us a little, I mean, obviously, uh, Elizabeth, uh, told us some, but, uh, tell us more, tell us more about your background and what you do, how you do it. Obviously, this is something I'm very interested in, you know, as a, as a hypnotherapist, I help people with, you know, addictions and things like that, but I want to, you know, take us into the weeds. I want to know more about what you do. Okay.

2:32 Speaker 3: Well, in my primary job, I'm not allowed to put needles in people's ears because, you know, I don't know, liability, that kind Well, you need the.

2:41 Speaker 1: Correct training, right?

2:42 Speaker 4: Except there is liability insurance for ADSs, but separate.

2:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Separate.

2:48 Speaker 3: So I first heard about your acupuncture probably.

2:55 Speaker 1: Jeff, can we— I' m sorry. Can we get that mic a little closer to you or have you.

2:58 Speaker 3: Probably about 45 years ago, an acupuncturist, addictionologist, psychiatrist opened a— an inpatient detoxification unit in Baton Rouge.

3:13 Speaker 1: Okay.

3:13 Speaker 3: At that point, I was a very, very young professional, and I went to hear her speak about it. And I was dumb enough when she said, hey, has anybody here ever thought about getting acupuncture? I was dumb enough to raise my hand. And I'm like, oh, I'm interviewing for jobs with these people. Everybody's more experienced than I am. She said, you, sir, you'll do. Come on up on stage.

3:37 Speaker 1: Yeah.

3:37 Speaker 3: I'm like, So I'm sweating and panting and terrified. Went up. She put needles in my ears. And like five minutes later, I'm like, what the heck was on those needles?

3:51 Speaker 1: Yeah.

3:52 Speaker 3: Why am I so chill now? What, you know, it was an amazing, amazing process.

3:58 Speaker 1: Okay. And, uh, so with, with, so just to be clear with immediate results, right?

4:03 Speaker 3: Yeah.

4:03 Speaker 1: You immediately noticed. Okay. Yep.

4:06 Speaker 3: A few minutes.

4:07 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, wow.

4:08 Speaker 3: This is, I am, I feel so much different. I am so much calmer. I'm not anxious. My thoughts are not racing. My breathing is no longer fast. Everything just chilled.

4:18 Speaker 1: Yeah.

4:20 Speaker 3: And so fast forward to, what, 2017? So maybe 30 years later, I am at Hope for New Hampshire Recovery, and I see this wonderful woman putting needles in people's ears. I'm like, I have not had this happen since, you know, I was 30, which was a long time ago. So I'm like, right away, what is this? How do we do it? And I started bringing my patients. to Hope for New Hampshire Recovery, to get ear acupuncture by Elizabeth.

4:54 Speaker 1: Oh, no kidding.

4:55 Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, so how do I get trained to do this? She made it happen, so I got trained to do this. And so I held certificate number 14 in the state of New Hampshire, so I was kind of an early adopter.

5:12 Speaker 1: Wow.

5:13 Speaker 3: We just finished a training and are now getting certificates number... 141 and 142. Okay.

5:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, we should back up.

5:23 Speaker 4: So I used to come on that show when the radio station was on Elm Street eight, nine years ago, just to talk about a pathway for certification where Jeff doesn't have to become a fully licensed acupuncturist, which takes four years to be an acupuncture detoxification specialist, which is a certification that exists in over 20 other states. I think we might have been the 25th state in the country to create a pathway for certification for acu-detox specialists. And so it's just a training to offer five points in the outer ear.

5:57 Speaker 4: It's a standardized protocol that was developed 50 years ago in.

6:01 Speaker 2: The Bronx in the middle of a heroin epidemic in the Bronx.

6:05 Speaker 4: And it's been, I would say, a very underutilized part of Substance misuse treatment, but it's also a really great tool for mental health, behavioral health. It's been used after traumatic events in communities. 9-11 was where that first started. There are communities around the country who have offered it after mass shootings. And basically, it was the opioid epidemic in New Hampshire that made me say, we need AccuDetox certification in New Hampshire. And so we were able to get that in 2017.

6:38 Speaker 2: And then a year later....

6:40 Speaker 4: I meet Jeff who had this introduction 30 years ago. And so now we train together and Manchester Acupuncture Studio and Hope for New Hampshire Recovery now partner to offer trainings.

6:53 Speaker 2: We've been doing three a year since 2024. Okay.

6:56 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. That's excellent. So how long is the training? Because as you mentioned, to become an acupuncturist, that takes four years. How long is the training for this?

7:06 Speaker 4: So think of this as more like a first aid program. You don't have to be a doctor or a nurse to practice first aid. Anybody can learn first aid. So this training is, it's roughly 70 hours and we offer it as a hybrid training. So for the four weeks leading up to meeting in person, we're sending everyone through Google Classroom material to read and videos to watch and to listen to. So that way when they are in a two-day classroom training, then we're just reviewing with our presentation of this is how it started.

7:39 Speaker 4: This is recognized by SAMHSA, which is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration under the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. This is used for the VA. This has other federal recognition, like the Indian Health Services, the IHS, which is also a federal agency. They offer services to Native American populations and Hawaii and Alaska Natives.

8:05 Speaker 2: So this has been sort of part of their toolbox for a really.

8:08 Speaker 4: Yeah, Native communities have offered this for a lot longer than they have been in more.

8:14 Speaker 2: I hate to say mainstream. It's not quite what I want to say that's not really... No, but.

8:20 Speaker 1: I know what you mean because I was not aware of this until you first told... Well, actually, you even demonstrated it. I don't know if you remember this. It wasn't on my radio show. I believe it was on Gary Hopper's show, Rock, Paper, Hand Grenades, when I was his co-host on there and you would come on and you did the ear... I did, yeah.

8:40 Speaker 2: I miss Gary Hopper.

8:41 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so what is it called again? I want to make sure I have the name right.

8:48 Speaker 4: So that's actually a really good question because it has multiple names.

8:52 Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

8:52 Speaker 4: I guess you could say for a long time it was referred to as AccuDetox, and I'll call it by different names interchangeably.

8:59 Speaker 3: Okay.

8:59 Speaker 2: AccuDetox because it was first known for....

9:03 Speaker 4: Early detox, when people have withdrawal symptoms, it was known to reduce the withdrawal symptoms that would keep people in recovery.

9:11 Speaker 1: Okay.

9:12 Speaker 4: And then the first organization that developed around training and advocacy and education was the National Acupuncture Detoxification Association.

9:21 Speaker 2: So they called it the NADA protocol.

9:23 Speaker 1: Okay.

9:24 Speaker 4: And now we train under a different organization. We train under the community acupuncture organization that I'm a part of. that my boss is a part of that he helped to found that Manchester acupuncture studio is a part of, which is people's organization of community acupuncture.

9:39 Speaker 2: And we technically can't call it nada. So we call it the five NP or the five needle protocol.

9:44 Speaker 1: Okay.

9:45 Speaker 2: So during training, I'm calling it acu detox and five NP.

9:48 Speaker 3: Yeah.

9:49 Speaker 1: Um, so it's, so, so the only thing it ultimately involves though, this specifically is, is the ear, the five in the, in the ear.

9:57 Speaker 2: Five standardized points in the ear.

9:59 Speaker 1: Okay.

9:59 Speaker 2: And we were talking about the training. So, um, we do, we have everyone learn online.

10:04 Speaker 4: We meet in the classroom for two days and then we follow up with a few opportunities for people to get their clinical, their clinical practice in.

10:11 Speaker 1: Interesting.

10:12 Speaker 2: So it's a roughly 70 hour training.

10:14 Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Um, and then, so I want to ask, Well, actually, this question really for both of you, but what are some misconceptions about acupuncture or about anything that you do? Because this is, I'm sure, you must have to do this a lot, right? Talk about, because people have all kinds of crazy ideas about acupuncture. It depends what we do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, what are some of the things you want to clear up this morning while we're here?

10:44 Speaker 2: I mean, I can name a few, but Jeff, do you have anything?

10:47 Speaker 3: No. A lot of people say, does it hurt? And really, I don't think it hurts. Sometimes there's a very spicy spot, but it's not painful. There may be a spicy moment when a needle goes in, but everything settles down.

11:07 Speaker 1: Were you nervous about that the first time?

11:10 Speaker 3: I didn't have time to be nervous about that the first time. I was in front of 200 people that could make decisions.

11:15 Speaker 1: About my career. Right, right. That makes sense, yeah.

11:20 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

11:21 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, not so worried about that. Right, right. That makes sense.

11:27 Speaker 3: And other people are amazed at how many things it does for them. You know, like, why did you put that needle there? Is that going to do this? Is that going to do this? I'm like, just get the needles in. See what happens.

11:41 Speaker 1: Yeah.

11:41 Speaker 3: I mean, people have, a lot of people have a reduction in sensation of physical pain as part of the treatment. Maybe because it reduces anxiety, tension, stress, which all of those make physical pain feel worse.

11:58 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Who knows?

12:00 Speaker 3: But people claim great responses from it. That's not why I do it.

12:05 Speaker 1: Right. I do it to help people chill. Okay. You know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What about you, Liz?

12:12 Speaker 4: I mean, I would say the same thing when I was at Hope for New Hampshire Recovery and I volunteered there for weekly for three years and I would treat people in the front room and people would be sitting around a table getting ear acupuncture and somebody would walk by and see it and they'd say, does it hurt? And I just turned to the group and say, so what do you think?

12:29 Speaker 2: Does it hurt? What do you want to say?

12:31 Speaker 1: Right.

12:32 Speaker 4: And that was a good way to get people interested. Okay, maybe I'll try it too.

12:35 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

12:37 Speaker 4: But I would also say, you know, many people have asked, is acupuncture placebo? And in some cases, maybe it is because.

12:42 Speaker 2: Placebo is powerful.

12:44 Speaker 4: But also there are veterinarians who practice acupuncture. I thank every veterinarian that I know who does acupuncture because when. I often meet people who will try acupuncture for the first time because their dog or their cat or their horse benefited from acupuncture. Or I'll come across an article about a zoo where the zoo animals are getting treated with acupuncture.

13:05 Speaker 2: And that's always really helpful.

13:07 Speaker 1: Okay. That's something, too, I remember when you mentioned that. The first time I ever heard you mention that, that surprised me. I had no idea that they did acupuncture on animals.

13:16 Speaker 3: Absolutely.

13:17 Speaker 1: I had no clue.

13:17 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's some research articles about acupuncture that show that, yes, this works for dental anesthesia on humans. Okay, well, that might be placebo. It also works on dogs. And that could be placebo, too, because they really want to impress us or beat, you know. But it also works on rats. And rats really don't give a crap about what we think. There's no placebo for a rat. Right.

13:48 Speaker 1: Good point. Good point. And what are some, we should talk more too about some of the things that acupuncture can be used for. And again, that's another thing that has surprised me, Liz, over the years, hearing you talk about some things that surprised me. But yeah, talk more about that if you could.

14:06 Speaker 2: Well, I would say this. I remember it's been a long time.

14:08 Speaker 4: 10 years, I would say, getting the ear acupuncture detoxification specialist certification passed in New Hampshire and meeting people in the recovery and mental health community and saying, this is a tool that you can use. Your staff can get certified. You will have greater attention of clients in your programs, which is what you want, whether it's mental health or whether it's addiction. And I do remember talking to someone from the New Hampshire drug court who said, But I hear it does so many things.

14:38 Speaker 4: And it's probably because he heard me talking about all of the different contexts in which it's been used. So I know you're asking me generally about acupuncture. And it's a whole system. We treat pain. We treat stress. We treat allergies.

14:53 Speaker 2: We treat.

14:54 Speaker 4: But when we talk about ear acupuncture and the certification for it, it's been used in harm reduction. It's been used in treatment. It's been used in drug courts. It's been used in mental health practices. It's been used in treating first responders after a natural disaster. We have an ADS, a retired police officer named Diana Scott. She works down at the Farm and Flower Market.

15:18 Speaker 1: Yeah.

15:19 Speaker 2: Shout out to Farm and Flower.

15:20 Speaker 4: But she wanted to offer stress reduction to fellow police officers. And so now she is going to the bow police station once a month to offer a stress clinic.

15:31 Speaker 1: Oh, that's excellent.

15:32 Speaker 4: Five points as what was developed in the seventies at the Lincoln hospital in the Bronx to treat heroin and methadone, um, withdrawal.

15:43 Speaker 1: Yeah.

15:44 Speaker 4: Same five points, but it's just used in a different context. And so that's when I feel like there might be the doubters about your acupuncture, but again, um, The reason why it works so well, the five points on the ear or any ear points is it releases dopamine.

16:00 Speaker 2: It balances serotonin. It decreases cortisol.

16:04 Speaker 1: Yeah.

16:05 Speaker 4: And that's what gives people sort of like, oh, my body aches are gone if they're dealing with withdrawal.

16:11 Speaker 1: Yeah.

16:11 Speaker 2: Or I'm able to take a deep breath.

16:14 Speaker 4: For the first time in a while or my heart rate is slowing down or my shoulders are dropping.

16:20 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

16:22 Speaker 3: We also have evidence that it can reduce inmate on inmate violence and inmate on correctional officer violence in prisons and jails. So California is doing it throughout their penal system thanks to a former attorney general there named Kamala Harris. Yeah, she kind of brought that into the correctional system in California, which I think is a great thing.

16:50 Speaker 1: I had no idea about that.

16:51 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also used in three quarters of the prisons in Great Britain.

16:55 Speaker 1: Really?

16:55 Speaker 4: Ireland.

16:56 Speaker 1: No kidding.

16:57 Speaker 2: And that's been the case for quite a long time.

16:59 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Wow.

17:01 Speaker 3: Yeah.

17:01 Speaker 4: I would say it's, it's been referred, like the 5NP or acu-detox has been referred to as a distinctly American form of acupuncture because of its development in the Bronx.

17:11 Speaker 2: But it has taken off worldwide.

17:13 Speaker 4: And so you're going to, it's been more prevalent in the UK or in Sweden or Denmark or the Philippines.

17:20 Speaker 3: Yeah.

17:21 Speaker 4: Lots of people are practicing this in the Philippines and just creating clinics, like community clinics where people just get 5NP. Like I consider, I work at a community clinic And we do acupuncture points on the arms and hands and legs and feet. But imagine if there were several opportunities around the city of Manchester and around New Hampshire where people could go and just get this treatment and it would help people stabilize, like help with depression, help manage anger, help with anxiety.

17:52 Speaker 4: We trained a hairdresser who started a nonprofit that serves the homeless in Manchester, Tia Ellie.

18:00 Speaker 1: Yeah.

18:00 Speaker 4: And her partner, Fadze Goyo, and she was offering ear acupuncture at a, she has a food pantry once a week in her hair salon.

18:10 Speaker 3: Okay.

18:10 Speaker 2: Over on Pearl Street.

18:11 Speaker 1: Yeah.

18:12 Speaker 2: She started offering ear acupuncture.

18:14 Speaker 4: She was doing pop-up clinics in the park treating Manchester's unhoused.

18:18 Speaker 1: No kidding.

18:18 Speaker 4: And now she is treating the teens at the teen shelter of Waypoint.

18:22 Speaker 1: Okay.

18:23 Speaker 4: So the Waypoint shelter is on the corner of Beach Street and Hanover.

18:27 Speaker 1: Yeah.

18:27 Speaker 4: And I pass it every day on my way to work at Manchester Acupuncture Studio. And for years, I'd say, how do we get your acupuncture into the teen shelter for Waypoint?

18:36 Speaker 2: And Tia did it.

18:37 Speaker 1: Yeah.

18:38 Speaker 2: She did it because she was there. She was serving that population and the connections were made.

18:41 Speaker 3: Yeah.

18:42 Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. What about acupuncture to quit smoking? I've always heard that it can be... I mean, that's... It's tricky.

18:53 Speaker 4: And I'm sure you deal with this with, with hypnosis too. Um, so I can think of Dr. Libby Stout, who is a colleague and lately she's become a really important mentor to me.

19:03 Speaker 2: She is a retired psychiatrist in Colorado.

19:06 Speaker 4: And for many years, a couple of decades, she was running a substance misuse treatment in Pueblo, Colorado, the circle program, a 90 day inpatient treatment. And not only was it for, um, Substance misuse. But she would also say it's no nicotine as well. So imagine like coffee and cigarettes are really, really important to people in recovery because you take everything else away.

19:32 Speaker 1: And that's right.

19:33 Speaker 2: Coffee and cigarettes.

19:33 Speaker 1: Right.

19:34 Speaker 4: So in her program, like not even nicotine. And she offered daily ear acupuncture to help people manage their withdrawal from all the other substances, plus the nicotine withdrawal. Very successful program. Eighty percent complete.

19:50 Speaker 2: Rate.

19:51 Speaker 3: Wow.

19:51 Speaker 2: And I think that's.

19:52 Speaker 4: Really important because many of the people in the program were told you either have to go to jail or you can do this treatment.

19:59 Speaker 2: And many people chose the treatment program.

20:01 Speaker 1: Yeah.

20:02 Speaker 4: And when they were there, they were saying, I don't really want to be here. And then she said, well, just remember, you did choose this. It was either this or you had to go to jail. And so using the ear acupuncture turned out to be a great way to retain people in the program so they would complete it. Also, when staff members are the ones offering the treatment, it helps to change the dynamic. So if people are in a program and they're feeling awful and miserable and they're taking it out on the staff, you know, but then the staff offers a treatment that makes people feel better, everyone's going to get along better.

20:34 Speaker 4: Kind of like what Jeff was just saying about, you know, reduces violence in prisons.

20:38 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

20:39 Speaker 4: And so, you know, we've had some instances where we've trained people and they go back to their program and their program says, yeah, we're still not sure about this. And then they don't offer it.

20:49 Speaker 2: Then we also hear stories that there's.

20:51 Speaker 4: Really high turnout turnover in a lot of of the substance misuse treatment programs in New Hampshire.

20:57 Speaker 1: Yeah.

20:57 Speaker 4: You know, and I think that I mean, I would say this whenever I come across anyone who says, yeah, we've heard of it. We're not sure, you know, all you know. There is liability insurance. That's always an excuse people throw up. And then they'll say, well, we don't have time. My question is this. Are you totally satisfied with how well your program is going? Are you not seeing anybody leave against medical advice at all in any way, shape, or form? Is your staff completely and totally happy, love coming to work every day, not quitting because they're burnt out?

21:29 Speaker 2: Then you don't need this.

21:31 Speaker 4: But if you are seeing people leaving against medical advice, and you want to retain your staff and you want your staff to be happy, then have them get trained in ear acupuncture.

21:41 Speaker 1: Yep.

21:41 Speaker 4: Give them time to practice it, not just with the clients, but also amongst each other.

21:45 Speaker 3: Yeah.

21:45 Speaker 2: Because the staff should get treated too to help with stress reduction.

21:48 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah.

21:49 Speaker 4: And hopefully you'll retain people in the program and then you'll retain, you know, they'll maintain their recovery after they finish the program and they'll, go ahead.

22:00 Speaker 3: If you are treating patients and staff at the same time you start to break down some of the barriers and some of the oh i have to take care of myself but you don't because your staff right it's like no we all have to take care of ourselves we can all work on our wellness and our well-being together yeah and it it kind of settles out a power differential that doesn't need to be there very.

22:28 Speaker 1: Well said absolutely absolutely The time goes quickly. When we were on afternoons, we had all this time because I had 10 hours a week of airtime. But we should do this again soon, though. Let's not let years and years go by. And when I say soon, I mean literally soon because there's plenty to cover. And, you know, you're obviously both doing great work. And so these kinds of conversations should happen more, you know, especially in a setting like this. where we can reach people locally, but also people listen to the show from all over the place online.

23:03 Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of people are learning things, have learned things from this conversation that they had no idea. And like I said, I've learned so much about, like I said, I had no idea the 5NP and all that. I didn't even know any of that existed until I met you. So I appreciate that. So we should definitely do this more often. Let's plan to do that.

23:23 Speaker 2: Can I give a shout out to somebody?

23:24 Speaker 1: Absolutely.

23:25 Speaker 4: So today from 10 to 5 at Queen City Center, right, just right down the block on Canal Street, there is a Mind Body Soul Expo sponsored by, organized by Sacred Moon Yoga.

23:37 Speaker 3: Okay.

23:37 Speaker 4: So two of the people who took our ADS training, Amy Cloutier and Monica Mahoney from On the Road to Wellness will be offering ear acupuncture.

23:46 Speaker 3: Oh, excellent.

23:46 Speaker 4: There's going to be yoga and there's body work and art and scented candles. And so you could go check that out if you're really curious. And then also, you know, Manchester Acupuncture Studio. If you're interested in training, you could reach.

24:00 Speaker 2: Out to us. Our website is www.massnh.org.

24:05 Speaker 4: Or you could just come check out acupuncture for all kinds of reasons why you would get acupuncture, pain and stress and everything in between.

24:13 Speaker 1: I may very well reach out to you about the training.

24:16 Speaker 2: That'd be great.

24:17 Speaker 1: Yes. And I always have that thought. After we talk about this and then the thought, that's another reason why we got to get back on soon to keep the thought in my head. Just go right now.

24:28 Speaker 3: M-A-S-N-H dot org slash ears.

24:32 Speaker 2: Slash ears.

24:32 Speaker 1: Yes.

24:33 Speaker 3: And there's a sign up.

24:35 Speaker 1: Okay.

24:36 Speaker 3: It may not be active yet.

24:37 Speaker 1: But it will be soon. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you both. Of course, Elizabeth, Rob and Acupunct, not the Acupunct.

24:44 Speaker 2: One of many.

24:46 Speaker 1: Anne Acupunk, Elizabeth Ropp, and Jeff Davis, wonderful to meet you. And we will do this again soon.