Live Nation and Ticketmaster vs. Department of Justice | Matt Connarton Unleashed

0:00 Speaker 1: Should we start with the Taylor Swift part of this. Yeah,

0:03 Speaker 1: this involves Live Nation and Ticketmaster and lawsuits and controversies,

0:08 Speaker 1: and and as I always say, whenever we talk about

0:11 Speaker 1: this stuff, you know, it seems like, UH, Live Nation

0:14 Speaker 1: and Ticketmaster comes up a lot on the show when

0:17 Speaker 1: we talk about music news and lawsuits and litigation and

0:20 Speaker 1: Department of Justice investigations and so forth. They're always in

0:23 Speaker 1: the news. But this is the article that you sent me.

0:26 Speaker 1: This is from UH Complete fo Yeah, Complete Music Update

0:31 Speaker 1: dot com. Yep, this just this just went up a

0:34 Speaker 1: couple of days ago. Taylor Swift and Barclays Center ticketing

0:37 Speaker 1: controversies prove monopolist Live Nation is damaging live music, Department

0:44 Speaker 1: of Justice tells jury. UH. The Live Nation antitrust trial

0:48 Speaker 1: got properly under way this week, with lawyers for the

0:51 Speaker 1: US Department of Justice and the Live giant UH delivering

0:57 Speaker 1: their opening statements.

0:59 Speaker 2: UH.

0:59 Speaker 1: Ticketing dramas involving Taylor Swift and New York's Barclays Center

1:04 Speaker 1: were a key part of the proceedings. So let's take

1:06 Speaker 1: a look at this. So, according to this article, the

1:11 Speaker 1: concert ticket industry is broken. In fact, the concert industry

1:14 Speaker 1: itself is broken and because both concerts and ticketing are

1:17 Speaker 1: controlled by a monopolist, and that monopolist is Live Nation.

1:21 Speaker 1: Those were the bold words of US Department of Justice

1:24 Speaker 1: lawyer David Dahlquist on day one of the big Live

1:29 Speaker 1: Nation antitrust trial in New York yesterday. All right, I'm sorry, Well,

1:35 Speaker 1: so this would have been the third because this article

1:37 Speaker 1: went up on the fourth a trial. The Live giants,

1:42 Speaker 1: lawyers and lobbyists tried very hard, indeed, to ensure what

1:45 Speaker 1: never happen, according to the DOJ and attorneys general for

1:49 Speaker 1: forty US states. So forty US states are participating in

1:53 Speaker 1: this Live Nation and its Ticketmaster subsidiary unlawfully exploit their

1:58 Speaker 1: market dominance at shows, venues, and ticketing to the detriment

2:02 Speaker 1: of artists, fans, and the wider music community. Live Nation

2:05 Speaker 1: strongly denies all these allegations, of course, and it's now

2:09 Speaker 1: for a jury to hear arguments from both sides and

2:12 Speaker 1: decide who is right. By the way, this is a

2:15 Speaker 1: side note. It is surprising, and I think we talked

2:18 Speaker 1: about this before that the Department of Justice under the

2:22 Speaker 1: current administration actually cares about any of this. But they

2:26 Speaker 1: but they do so good.

2:28 Speaker 3: Happily surprised that that it is on the radar because

2:32 Speaker 3: we've talked about this for years and the artists are

2:35 Speaker 3: the ones who get ripped.

2:37 Speaker 1: Off well and you know the consumers well, I mean

2:42 Speaker 1: we've talked about of course that's the shady course, the

2:45 Speaker 1: shady practices of uh.

2:48 Speaker 3: But it's like you always I always think about the

2:50 Speaker 3: artists like they bust their took us as they go

2:52 Speaker 3: from state to state pilon in shows and it's like

2:56 Speaker 3: they get pennies on the dollar for the tickets. The

2:59 Speaker 3: people are coming to see them, right, But it's the

3:03 Speaker 3: people selling everything that make the majority of the money. Boy,

3:06 Speaker 3: that sounds like healthcare.

3:07 Speaker 1: Well they make Uh, they make the money on merch.

3:10 Speaker 1: Merch is where the money is for the artists. It's

3:12 Speaker 1: not on it's not on ticket sales.

3:14 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it's not include it doesn't include ticket sales, and

3:18 Speaker 3: it should. Uh.

3:20 Speaker 2: There are some artists that try to rebel.

3:23 Speaker 1: So it says here from the off Dohlquist and the

3:26 Speaker 1: other Dave Live Nations Legal Rep. Dave Marriott of Latham

3:30 Speaker 1: and Watkins Watkins, ll P began the Battle of the

3:34 Speaker 1: stats because both Daves have stats to hand, uh to hand,

3:37 Speaker 1: which they claim prove that they are right. Yes, both

3:41 Speaker 1: sides are represented by Dave, both of whom claim the

3:44 Speaker 1: stats back up their case, which isn't at all confusing.

3:48 Speaker 1: According to do o J Dave aka mister Dahlquist, the

3:52 Speaker 1: author of this article was having a little too much

3:54 Speaker 1: fun with this, Dave. It's a little too much little.

3:56 Speaker 1: It's actually a little annoying.

3:57 Speaker 2: It makes a confusing it's not helpful.

4:01 Speaker 1: According to DAJO DOJ Dave aka mister Dolquist, Live Nation

4:06 Speaker 1: controls eighty six percent of large concert ticketing in the Oh,

4:09 Speaker 1: that's not a monopoly of large concert two no, not

4:12 Speaker 1: at all in the US, and seventy eight percent of

4:14 Speaker 1: the country's amphitheater venues, which we can all agree sounds

4:18 Speaker 1: like something we should be worried about. But of ticketing

4:22 Speaker 1: at large, Ticketmaster has a forty percent market share and

4:25 Speaker 1: for venues twenty percent. Live Nation Dave or mister Marriott countered.

4:30 Speaker 1: One of Live's Nation's key arguments is that the DOJ

4:33 Speaker 1: is slice the entertainment market up into artificial segments in

4:37 Speaker 1: order to make it look like the Live Giant is

4:39 Speaker 1: much more dominant than it really is. It seems likely

4:42 Speaker 1: that this stat bickering will continue throughout the trial, though

4:46 Speaker 1: what jurys really like his stories, and yesterday's opening statements

4:50 Speaker 1: had two good stories to tell, which illustrate the tangible

4:53 Speaker 1: negative impact of Live Nation's monopoly or not, depending on

4:57 Speaker 1: which Dave you believe. Story one, Once upon a time

5:00 Speaker 1: there was an arena venue in New York called the

5:02 Speaker 1: Barclays Center, and one day it decided to change its

5:05 Speaker 1: ticketing provider from Ticketmaster to seat Geek. Except the next day,

5:11 Speaker 1: well about eighteen months later, it switched back to Ticketmaster.

5:16 Speaker 1: So what happened? I mean, we know there was an

5:19 Speaker 1: angry phone call involving Live Nation CEO Michael Rapino, But

5:23 Speaker 1: did Live Nation actually use its dominance in arena level

5:26 Speaker 1: touring to force the arena to return to its ticketing

5:29 Speaker 1: business or was seat Geek just not up to the

5:32 Speaker 1: task for providing primary ticketing for New York's big arena venue. So,

5:37 Speaker 1: in other words, you know, did Live Nation somehow strong

5:41 Speaker 1: arm the Barclays Center and in doing so did they

5:44 Speaker 1: potentially do something illegal? So, getting back to the article,

5:48 Speaker 1: according to DOJ lawyer Dohlquist, while management at Barclays Center

5:52 Speaker 1: wanted to use seat Geek for their ticketing. It became

5:55 Speaker 1: very clear of that quote if they didn't use Ticketmaster,

5:58 Speaker 1: Live Nation's touring division and wouldn't send them any concerts unquote.

6:03 Speaker 1: So basically, when Barclay Center moved its ticketing to seat Geek, quote,

6:07 Speaker 1: live Nation punished them and they were forced to go

6:11 Speaker 1: back to Ticketmaster unquote. Before we go any further, that

6:17 Speaker 1: raises a question, is that, is that where is the

6:23 Speaker 1: line between between just being hardball hardcore business people. Where's

6:33 Speaker 1: the line between that and just being outright predatory? And

6:38 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer.

6:39 Speaker 2: I think they crossed it a while ago. I think

6:42 Speaker 2: they are predatory.

6:44 Speaker 1: Is is that but that example, specifically, Okay, you're not

6:47 Speaker 1: going to use our ticketing business. We're just not going

6:49 Speaker 1: to send you anymore because we're this powerful, We're just

6:52 Speaker 1: not gonna send you any more big shows, right?

6:55 Speaker 2: Is that?

6:57 Speaker 1: I mean? Technically, are you going is your order here?

7:00 Speaker 1: Your coffee order? Yeah, okay, Jenny's going to get her

7:03 Speaker 1: coffee order. But I just but I just I pose

7:06 Speaker 1: that question, like, like, where is the line between you know,

7:10 Speaker 1: just playing hardball and actually doing something that would be

7:14 Speaker 1: considered predatory and therefore potentially illegal or at least leaving

7:18 Speaker 1: you vulnerable in some sort of civil action. I asked

7:21 Speaker 1: that question. I'm not a legal expert of any kind.

7:24 Speaker 1: Uh So I don't know the answer. I'm just asking,

7:27 Speaker 1: and I guess you know it's subjective. But okay, getting

7:30 Speaker 1: back to the article. But the Live Nation chief never

7:33 Speaker 1: threatened to stop concerts being promoted by his company's Story

7:36 Speaker 1: division from being staged at the New York Arena and

7:39 Speaker 1: the Barclay Center ultimately returned to Ticketmaster quote not because

7:42 Speaker 1: of any threats, but because seat geek fell down on

7:45 Speaker 1: the job unquote. Okay, story number two. Once upon a

7:49 Speaker 1: time there was a singer called Taylor Swift who decided

7:51 Speaker 1: to sing some of her songs on an airass tour.

7:55 Speaker 1: She appointed Ticketmaster to send her tickets, but on the

7:58 Speaker 1: day the tickets went on sale, Oh to sell her

8:01 Speaker 1: tickets rather, But on the day the tickets went on sale,

8:04 Speaker 1: everything crashed, resulting in a lot of very angry Swift fans.

8:09 Speaker 1: I remember that we talked about that on the show,

8:11 Speaker 1: Oh Dear. But here's the question. Did it all go

8:13 Speaker 1: wrong because the Live Nation ticketing company got complacent because

8:17 Speaker 1: it enjoys a virtual monopoly over concert ticketing and as

8:20 Speaker 1: a result failed to build a decent it infrastructure or

8:24 Speaker 1: was the demand for Swift's tickets, including from dubious Bot

8:29 Speaker 1: using ticket touts, at an unprecedented high, and there isn't

8:35 Speaker 1: a ticketing platform in the world that could have copied

8:38 Speaker 1: in those circumstances. By the way, I tend to think that,

8:43 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, if anyone has the necessary infrastructure

8:47 Speaker 1: to handle the demand for a big tour like that,

8:50 Speaker 1: it would be Live Nation and Ticketmaster, right, so probably

8:54 Speaker 1: the latter. There just isn't a ticketing platform in the

8:56 Speaker 1: world that could have handled that without But I do

9:00 Speaker 1: remember we covered that on the show. Okay, continuing on

9:03 Speaker 1: with the article, Well, according to Dohlquist, the Swift debacle

9:06 Speaker 1: was simply emblematic of a company that has little competitive

9:10 Speaker 1: incentive to build a consumer friendly ticketing product that is

9:13 Speaker 1: fit for purpose. He said, quote, their technology is held

9:17 Speaker 1: together by duct tape. They have prioritized growth over maintaining

9:21 Speaker 1: their systems unquote. And by the way, that's very common,

9:24 Speaker 1: very common in business. A lot of tech companies or

9:26 Speaker 1: companies that rely on tech will do that, you know.

9:30 Speaker 1: They they're so focused on growing and growing and growing

9:34 Speaker 1: their market share, that maybe some of their infrastructure is

9:38 Speaker 1: left to not keep up with what they're trying to do,

9:42 Speaker 1: and they you know, and sometimes websites crash as a

9:45 Speaker 1: result of it. It happens, Okay, So Marriott countered that, yes,

9:50 Speaker 1: the Taylor Swift launch was a debacle, and Ticketmaster never

9:53 Speaker 1: has denied that fact. But this was the single largest

9:57 Speaker 1: on sale ever or her tour. Taylor Swift, and the

10:02 Speaker 1: cyber attacks by touts and other rogue parties created challenges

10:05 Speaker 1: that no other ticketing company could have dealt with any better.

10:08 Speaker 1: The Barclay Center bust up and Taylor Swift the Taylor

10:14 Speaker 1: Swift on sale are likely to be referenced throughout the trial,

10:17 Speaker 1: with the DOJ keen to present these events as tangible

10:21 Speaker 1: proof of live Music's monopoly problem, while Live Nation will

10:25 Speaker 1: insist these are instead incidents that have been misrepresented. Ultimately,

10:30 Speaker 1: the case swings on whether there is enough evidence to

10:32 Speaker 1: show that Live Nation routinely ties its venue management, tour promotions,

10:36 Speaker 1: and ticketing services together in a way that specifically violates

10:39 Speaker 1: US laws at a federal or state level. Though a

10:42 Speaker 1: jury is involved, the stats and stories will likely be

10:45 Speaker 1: a key part of the narrative as the proceedings progress

10:48 Speaker 1: and the two daves present their respective arguments. Okay, now

10:53 Speaker 1: we have a second article that kind of expands on

11:01 Speaker 1: that because it's directly related to that. Now, this is

11:04 Speaker 1: from Digital Music News, which is one of my favorite

11:06 Speaker 1: websites to get music news from. Check this out, and

11:11 Speaker 1: it's got kind of a provocative title to this article.

11:14 Speaker 1: What is Live Nation retaliation insurance? You don't want to know?

11:20 Speaker 1: That's that's the title of this article. Yeah, yeah, so

11:25 Speaker 1: you know, because we're talking about Live Nation and there

11:30 Speaker 1: what could be considered predatory business practices. Okay, and again

11:34 Speaker 1: this is from Digital Musicnews dot com. Former BSE Global

11:37 Speaker 1: CEO John abmont I should have pre read this, Abamandi,

11:42 Speaker 1: I think isn't the only one to deliver testimony that

11:45 Speaker 1: Live Nation retaliated when his venue explored a compelling I'm sorry,

11:49 Speaker 1: a competing proposal. Here's the latest with the federal antitrust law.

11:53 Speaker 1: So again this refers to the article. This refers to

11:56 Speaker 1: the lawsuit we were talking about in the other article,

11:59 Speaker 1: with the federal antitrust trial against Live Nation and Ticketmaster

12:03 Speaker 1: in full swing. Venue owners are testifying that Live Nation

12:06 Speaker 1: weaponized major tour dates to keep them from switching their

12:10 Speaker 1: ticketing to a competitor. Again, like seat Geek, the Barclay

12:14 Speaker 1: Center tried to do. Digital Music News covered testimony from

12:18 Speaker 1: former BSE Global CEO John Abamandi relating to a planned

12:23 Speaker 1: Billie Eilish show at the Barclay Center that Live Nation

12:26 Speaker 1: allegedly rug pulled. Now Mitch Helgerson, chief revenue officer for

12:32 Speaker 1: the Minnesota Wild, has lobbied So I'm sorry, has lobbed

12:36 Speaker 1: similar allegations against the Live Events Juggernaut. According to Helgerson,

12:42 Speaker 1: when is Music Venue explored a proposal from Live Nation

12:45 Speaker 1: competitor Seat Geek during contract negotiations, a Ticketmaster executive warned

12:50 Speaker 1: him that Live Nation could just move its shows to

12:53 Speaker 1: a competing venue. Helgerson called this a credible threat and

12:58 Speaker 1: noted that losing those would have been catastrophic. And again,

13:03 Speaker 1: I just raised the question, is that is that just hardball,

13:08 Speaker 1: hardball business tactics, or is that does that cross the line?

13:12 Speaker 1: Is it predatory? When seek Geek heard the news, they

13:15 Speaker 1: were apparently keenly aware of Live Nation strategy, offering the

13:19 Speaker 1: Wild what it literally referred to as a Live Nation

13:23 Speaker 1: retaliation insurance, that is, a promise to compensate the venue

13:29 Speaker 1: if concerts were pulled. Well, good on sea Geek for

13:33 Speaker 1: stepping up, I guess, but how do you, uh, how

13:36 Speaker 1: do you even do that? Though? How could they put like,

13:39 Speaker 1: if all these events are pulled, how are they going

13:40 Speaker 1: to compensate the venue? Interesting? But even with that, getting

13:44 Speaker 1: back to the article, but even with that offer, and

13:46 Speaker 1: even though the sea Geek proposal would have ranked would

13:50 Speaker 1: have raked in an additional million dollars a year for

13:53 Speaker 1: the venue, the Wild Hockey team ultimately chose to stay

13:57 Speaker 1: with Ticketmaster. The most damning part is that if seat

14:02 Speaker 1: geek has a policy it refers to, even colloquially as

14:06 Speaker 1: Live Nation retaliation insurance, then the company's reputation as a

14:10 Speaker 1: monopoly seems correctly placed. Of course, Live Nation has fervently

14:15 Speaker 1: pushed back against these allegations. In the similar ones posited

14:18 Speaker 1: by Abamandi on cross examination, there was a lot of

14:22 Speaker 1: emphasis on the complexity of switching ticketing platforms, that seat

14:26 Speaker 1: geek had real usability shortcomings. In that Abamandi's case, he

14:33 Speaker 1: already had personal relationships with seat geek execs. However, none

14:39 Speaker 1: of this explains why the Billie Eilis show in New

14:42 Speaker 1: York ended up twenty miles away after so called thinly

14:46 Speaker 1: veiled frets from Live Nation and Ticketmaster. Nor does it

14:50 Speaker 1: explain why the Minnesota Wild would leave a million dollars

14:53 Speaker 1: a year on the table, if not out of fear

14:56 Speaker 1: of retaliation. It's only been the first week of the trial,

15:00 Speaker 1: which is expected to last about six weeks. Time will

15:03 Speaker 1: tell if the jury ultimately agrees with the government's assertion

15:06 Speaker 1: that Live Nation has in fact becomes such a dominant

15:09 Speaker 1: force that it can essentially bully the rest of the

15:12 Speaker 1: industry into taking a knee. But if Abamandi and Helgerson's

15:15 Speaker 1: testimonies are any indication, the first week isn't looking good

15:18 Speaker 1: for Live Nation. So that is from Digitalmusicnews dot com.

15:23 Speaker 1: And again you know the Live Nation and Ticketmaster there.

15:27 Speaker 1: For as long as I can remember, this is not

15:29 Speaker 1: a recent thing. For as long as I can remember,

15:31 Speaker 1: they've always been in the news attached to some sort

15:35 Speaker 1: of controversy investigation, very often over over predatory business practices

15:46 Speaker 1: or alleged predatory business practices. One more little bit of

15:51 Speaker 1: a piece to this. This is not directly relate to

15:54 Speaker 1: this specific trial, but this is from me Music Businessworldwide

16:01 Speaker 1: dot Com. It does relate to ticketing. Music industry groups

16:05 Speaker 1: push us Senate to titan Ticket Act and cap resale

16:10 Speaker 1: fees at ten percent. So this is short, but this

16:13 Speaker 1: will kind of put a put a cap pun fully

16:17 Speaker 1: intended in this case on this what we've been talking

16:20 Speaker 1: about this morning. So again, this is from Music Business

16:23 Speaker 1: Worldwide dot Com, one of my favorite websites for music

16:26 Speaker 1: industry news. By the way, this is another great site

16:28 Speaker 1: if you're interested in this stuff. A group of music

16:30 Speaker 1: and live music organizations is pressing the Senate to titan

16:33 Speaker 1: federal ticketing legislation, arguing that the current version of the

16:38 Speaker 1: Ticket Act is insufficient in protecting fans. The fix. The

16:43 Speaker 1: TICS coalition, led by the National Independent Venue Association, wrote

16:49 Speaker 1: an open letter to the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science,

16:52 Speaker 1: and Transportation calling for changes to the Ticket Act. The

16:57 Speaker 1: letter was addressed to Chairman Ted Cruz, ranking Member Maria Cantwell,

17:00 Speaker 1: sub Committee Chairman Marsha Blackburn, and ranking Member John Hickenlooper.

17:06 Speaker 1: They wrote, quote, when federal policy falls short, fans pay

17:11 Speaker 1: the price. They lose money and cur unnecessary travel costs

17:14 Speaker 1: and waste. Time they missed the show they planned around,

17:18 Speaker 1: and they often blame the artists, venue, or team rather

17:21 Speaker 1: than the reseller or platform that misled them. Meanwhile, scalpers

17:27 Speaker 1: and speculative sellers assume none of the risk and face

17:30 Speaker 1: few meaningful consequences unquote. And by the way, just to

17:36 Speaker 1: just to you know, remind people if you don't know,

17:39 Speaker 1: when we're talking about resellers and scalpers, you know, there's

17:42 Speaker 1: all these we call them the secondary market. Very often,

17:46 Speaker 1: when these tickets go on sale through Live Nation and Ticketmaster,

17:50 Speaker 1: you might notice, and this has been going on literally

17:54 Speaker 1: for decades. You know, shows seem to sell out, big,

17:56 Speaker 1: big tours, seem to sell out very very quickly, and

18:00 Speaker 1: you might ask yourself, how is it possible that these

18:04 Speaker 1: shows sell out so quickly? Even with the internet, how

18:07 Speaker 1: can so many people log on and buy so many

18:09 Speaker 1: tickets at once? Well, very often it's these resellers, these

18:13 Speaker 1: secondary market ticket sellers, who buy up a lot of

18:18 Speaker 1: tickets and then once the show is quote unquote sold out,

18:21 Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, these secondary market resellers, oh

18:25 Speaker 1: they've got tickets at a significantly higher price, but they've

18:28 Speaker 1: got tickets for you. So it is a form of helping.

18:31 Speaker 1: They are it is a form of scalping. They use

18:33 Speaker 1: bots to buy up tickets. Ticketmaster, for their part, they

18:38 Speaker 1: have policies that you can only buy so many tickets

18:41 Speaker 1: at a time, But as we've discussed on the show,

18:44 Speaker 1: it is no secret that those policies are not necessarily

18:47 Speaker 1: consistently enforced by the very technology that is supposed to

18:51 Speaker 1: prevent scalpers and bots from buying up all these tickets

18:55 Speaker 1: at once. So it's a dirty business. The ticketing business

18:58 Speaker 1: is a dirty business.

19:00 Speaker 3: Remember when I was a kid going with my mom

19:04 Speaker 3: and camping out on the sidewalk in a line with

19:08 Speaker 3: other people outside a ticket Master, waiting for the moment

19:12 Speaker 3: that the door would open. And back in the day,

19:14 Speaker 3: the only way you could buy tickets was in person

19:17 Speaker 3: or on the phone, so it was harder for scalpers.

19:21 Speaker 3: They still did it. They still did it, but it

19:24 Speaker 3: was harder on them because you only had those two avenues.

19:28 Speaker 3: And you know, I did this with my mom. We

19:31 Speaker 3: went to see Prince. It was the most amazing experience.

19:35 Speaker 3: But nowadays, with the technology, they should be able to

19:40 Speaker 3: tell like okay, ip address, we've got bots here, because

19:44 Speaker 3: so and so you know, there's four bots in here

19:46 Speaker 3: buying X number of tickets at the same time from

19:50 Speaker 3: the same IP address. But that doesn't necessarily happen. And

19:54 Speaker 3: do they really care? Do they really care? Because what

19:58 Speaker 3: they want is a fast buck. They want the biggest

20:00 Speaker 3: profit that they can get. They want every ticket to sell, absolutely,

20:05 Speaker 3: So as long as they're.

20:06 Speaker 2: Selling, hey, they're meeting their their margins. You know, they're

20:09 Speaker 2: making their profit.

20:12 Speaker 3: And the heck with the venue, you know, to heck

20:14 Speaker 3: with the with the band, to heck with the people,

20:18 Speaker 3: because you know, it sounds like healthcare. You know, it's

20:22 Speaker 3: the big guys. These guys have multimillion dollar salaries. They

20:25 Speaker 3: make a ton of money. You know, there's shareholders that

20:28 Speaker 3: they make a ton of money. And it's always about

20:30 Speaker 3: how much more can you make me? How much more

20:32 Speaker 3: can you make me? Because it's never enough. Then, you know,

20:35 Speaker 3: million dollar profit not enough, make me more? Five million

20:38 Speaker 3: dollar profit not enough, make me more. That's what happens.

20:42 Speaker 3: And they don't care. I don't believe that they care.

20:45 Speaker 3: And the reason I say that is because I can remember.

20:48 Speaker 3: For all of my adult life, this has been a

20:51 Speaker 3: topic consistently. There's been core case after core case. There's

20:55 Speaker 3: been DJ investigations nationally as well as states. We've been

21:00 Speaker 3: talking about this and hearing about this for as long

21:02 Speaker 3: as Ticketmaster has existed. Yes, yes, and they have consistently

21:07 Speaker 3: gotten away and found way is to skirt around the

21:11 Speaker 3: laws that they have.

21:13 Speaker 2: The monopoly on sales of tickets period. They just do.

21:18 Speaker 2: That's a fact.

21:19 Speaker 1: Even program had to back down in the nineties when

21:21 Speaker 1: they tried to They tried, they tried.

21:24 Speaker 3: And they're not the artists that have said, well, I'm

21:26 Speaker 3: not going to sell my tickets to them because I

21:28 Speaker 3: don't like the way they do business.

21:30 Speaker 2: And they try, they try, but then they end up

21:32 Speaker 2: having to go back.

21:33 Speaker 3: Why because all the venues are using that and they're

21:37 Speaker 3: not giving them. There's no alternative way for them to

21:40 Speaker 3: do it. That they get to hold this monopoly. They

21:44 Speaker 3: have a stranglehold on ticket sales. And I find it interesting.

21:49 Speaker 3: Did you get to the bottom part? I don't know

21:51 Speaker 3: if I missed. Did you get to the bottom part

21:55 Speaker 3: of that article?

21:56 Speaker 1: No? About halfway through it?

21:57 Speaker 2: Oh, okay, then I'll hold off on my additional.

22:00 Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, a little bit more to this again.

22:05 Speaker 1: This is from Music Business Worldwide dot Com so, it says.

22:08 Speaker 1: The push comes over a month after a January twenty

22:11 Speaker 1: eight Senate Committee Herey Subcommittee hearing where Blackburn led a

22:15 Speaker 1: panel of lawmakers in pressing Live Nation to do more

22:17 Speaker 1: to clamp down on ticket scalping. Live Nations Executive vice

22:21 Speaker 1: president of Corporate and Regulatory Affairs Dan Wall was present

22:25 Speaker 1: at the hearing alongside musician Kid Rock and other stakeholders.

22:29 Speaker 1: The coalition, whose signatories include the Recording Academy, SAG after

22:34 Speaker 1: a Event Bright and American Federation of Musicians, and more

22:37 Speaker 1: than a dozen other organizations, said the bill contains gaps

22:41 Speaker 1: that bad actors will continue to exploit. They wrote, quote,

22:44 Speaker 1: the Ticket Act is a step forward, but without a

22:47 Speaker 1: complete ban on speculative ticketing and forceable limits on resale

22:51 Speaker 1: pricing and fees and robust end to end price transparency,

22:56 Speaker 1: bad actors will continue to exploit gaps in the law

23:00 Speaker 1: the expense of fans and communities. On pricing transparency, the

23:03 Speaker 1: groups are demanding disclosure of the base ticket price and

23:07 Speaker 1: every associated fee to appear from the moment a customer

23:10 Speaker 1: selects a ticket, not just at checkout quote not requiring

23:15 Speaker 1: ticket price and ticket fees broken out in a is

23:18 Speaker 1: a shortcoming of the Federal Trade Commissions All in Pricing rule,

23:23 Speaker 1: and we are looking to Congress directify it unquote on

23:26 Speaker 1: speculative ticketing. The coalition is called for a prohibition without exception,

23:31 Speaker 1: they wrote, quote as multiple witnesses testified tickets that do

23:35 Speaker 1: not exist, are not in the seller's possession, or are

23:38 Speaker 1: marketed through so called concierge or seat saver schemes are

23:43 Speaker 1: not a service. They are deception unquote and predatory. Tend

23:48 Speaker 1: to agree it's predatory as well. Yeah, you're desperate to

23:52 Speaker 1: go see.

23:52 Speaker 3: Somebody and something like that pops up, You snag it.

23:55 Speaker 3: You don't even Sometimes people don't even realize how much

23:59 Speaker 3: they got ripped off until later on when they find

24:02 Speaker 3: out what the prices truly were, or they talk to

24:05 Speaker 3: somebody else and they go, geez, I spent three hundred

24:09 Speaker 3: dollars more than that?

24:10 Speaker 2: How come? Who conchier's service?

24:14 Speaker 3: It really isn't it's just a fancy word for a scalper.

24:18 Speaker 2: It really is.

24:19 Speaker 3: And the problem has been consistent in that every time

24:22 Speaker 3: there's legislation to try and regulate this issue, it gets

24:25 Speaker 3: defeated or it doesn't even make it.

24:28 Speaker 1: For a vote.

24:30 Speaker 3: You know, I'm hopeful that Okay, the DJ is actually

24:33 Speaker 3: on this and forty states out.

24:36 Speaker 2: Of fifties awful lot.

24:39 Speaker 3: You know, should in Congress do something when this has

24:42 Speaker 3: been a consistent issue time and again, bill after bill

24:46 Speaker 3: of trying to rain this in to make sure that

24:49 Speaker 3: you know, people aren't just getting ripped off because the

24:53 Speaker 3: system doesn't isn't is still not protective of the consumer

24:58 Speaker 3: and the artist. It protects the scalper more than it

25:01 Speaker 3: does the consumer and the artist because the safeguards aren't in.

25:05 Speaker 1: Place, it says here. The letter also calls for deleting

25:08 Speaker 1: the Bills Services Permitted Provision and proposes direct by the

25:12 Speaker 1: Act so that a ticket issuer oh quote, a ticket issuer,

25:16 Speaker 1: secondary market ticket issuer, or a secondary market ticket exchange

25:20 Speaker 1: that does not have actual or constructive possession of an

25:23 Speaker 1: event ticket shall not sell, offer for sale, or advertise

25:27 Speaker 1: for sale such an event ticket unquote. The third demand

25:30 Speaker 1: is for a ban on reselling. This is the important

25:33 Speaker 1: part of this whole thing.

25:34 Speaker 2: Isn't this weird though?

25:35 Speaker 3: That you have to create a band to say you

25:37 Speaker 3: can't sell something you don't have, I know, right.

25:40 Speaker 1: It's wild?

25:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, that should be a basic consumer law. How do

25:43 Speaker 2: you sell something you don't have right?

25:44 Speaker 1: Right that as a loophole. The third demand is for

25:49 Speaker 1: a ban on reselling off tickets above the original total

25:51 Speaker 1: cost and for a cap of all resale fees at

25:54 Speaker 1: no more than ten percent quote. Across the country, fans

25:58 Speaker 1: are being priced out of live events, not because artists

26:01 Speaker 1: or venues raise prices, but because resale markets allow unlimited

26:04 Speaker 1: markups and excessive fees divorced from any added value or risk.

26:09 Speaker 1: A federal prohibition on resale above the original total cost,

26:14 Speaker 1: combined with a strict cap on resale fees, would directly

26:17 Speaker 1: address price gouging, align incentives toward real fan access, and

26:22 Speaker 1: ensure that tickets end up in the hands of fans,

26:26 Speaker 1: not industrial speculators. A companion House Bill HR fourteen oh

26:31 Speaker 1: two pass House of Representatives with overwhelming bipartisan support in

26:35 Speaker 1: April twenty twenty five, and was placed on the Senate

26:37 Speaker 1: calendar in September s two eighty one. The Senate's own

26:42 Speaker 1: version remains in committee. So there you go.

26:48 Speaker 3: So if that's not bad enough, then you have all

26:50 Speaker 3: of the the quote unquote threats yeah to the venues

26:57 Speaker 3: that there's accusations of you know, like about the Billie

27:01 Speaker 3: Eilish part.

27:04 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, where the what was it? The show is

27:06 Speaker 2: in New York.

27:06 Speaker 3: The show was supposed to be in New York, but

27:08 Speaker 3: it ended up twenty miles away. After there was some

27:11 Speaker 3: kind of a thinly veiled threat from Live Nations slash Ticketmaster,

27:15 Speaker 3: because I remember Live Ation and Ticketmaster are the same thing, right,

27:19 Speaker 3: they really are.

27:20 Speaker 2: It's not two different things these are.

27:21 Speaker 3: They're own by the same people, just two different flags

27:24 Speaker 3: they sit underneath. So if you're going to Live Nation,

27:27 Speaker 3: you are buying from Ticketmaster, period, right, So don't think

27:31 Speaker 3: that those terms aren't aren't interchangeable, because they are. Or

27:34 Speaker 3: wherein they talked about the Minnesota Wild would walk away

27:39 Speaker 3: from a million dollar deal out of fear of being

27:42 Speaker 3: retaliated against by Live Nation Ticketmaster, right, you know, So

27:47 Speaker 3: if it's not bad enough, what we just said is

27:49 Speaker 3: already happening to consumers this other side. It's almost like

27:53 Speaker 3: a mafia attitude with ticket sales. These companies are like, yeah,

27:58 Speaker 3: you must come to the dog to get permission to

28:01 Speaker 3: sell this or something like, right, because it is you know,

28:04 Speaker 3: if you're not selling your tickets through us, we're going

28:06 Speaker 3: to threaten to never sell your venue's tickets again.

28:10 Speaker 1: Right, you will get nobody. You know.

28:12 Speaker 3: This is it's it's beyond wrong now. It's it went

28:18 Speaker 3: from the from being a monopolly to now being a mafia.

28:22 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but that's how it is. If you're if

28:25 Speaker 3: people are afraid, that's yeah, the fear is coming from that.

28:31 Speaker 3: It's it's ridiculous. We've been saying this for years. This

28:36 Speaker 3: is not about the free market. The free market isn't

28:39 Speaker 3: fixing this. That's making it worse. What will fix it

28:42 Speaker 3: is to have regulation that doesn't allow because we have

28:45 Speaker 3: to apparently create a new law because apparently existing law

28:49 Speaker 3: doesn't prevent somebody from selling something they don't even have. Yeah,

28:54 Speaker 3: I am selling one hundred tickets to this concert at

28:58 Speaker 3: a three hundred dollars market concil and I haven't even

29:01 Speaker 3: bought the tickets yet.

29:02 Speaker 2: Well, I don't even have them in my hand yet.

29:04 Speaker 1: The only thing though, that does that does happen in

29:06 Speaker 1: other sectors. I mean, you know, well even in the

29:09 Speaker 1: music industry, like you know, artists will you know, put

29:12 Speaker 1: things on pre sale that aren't necessarily available yet.

29:15 Speaker 2: You know what I mean, they have their own tickets

29:17 Speaker 2: that isn't.

29:19 Speaker 1: But I just mean, like you can you know, sometimes

29:21 Speaker 1: you can buy a single or thing. Yeah, that's an orange.

29:24 Speaker 2: I don't either sale you're selling something, But I'm just

29:27 Speaker 2: that you.

29:28 Speaker 1: Have you have it, but you might not have it yet,

29:30 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. So you might be working on

29:32 Speaker 1: something that you're or if you're crowdfunding something a project

29:35 Speaker 1: or something. So there are other examples.

29:36 Speaker 3: Huge difference to that in saying I have one hundred tickets. No,

29:40 Speaker 3: I agree, and I don't actually have the tickets. And

29:42 Speaker 3: that's what the article is super clear about is that

29:46 Speaker 3: in a lot of these secondary markets, they're getting their

29:49 Speaker 3: hands on nothing but your money. Then they're getting this

29:53 Speaker 3: huge markup, and then they just take a small portion

29:55 Speaker 3: out of your money and go and actually buy the

29:57 Speaker 3: ticket you could have bought for that price, but they

30:02 Speaker 3: swindled you. And these companies get get better and better

30:05 Speaker 3: at it. In any industry, you'll see, like now, when

30:08 Speaker 3: you go in and put in a search for something,

30:11 Speaker 3: they're buying sponsored spots that get them to pop up

30:15 Speaker 3: to the top. And most of the time we click

30:18 Speaker 3: on what's the first thing we see, right, pay it.

30:21 Speaker 2: Don't do that anymore. Take a look at it. Always. Look.

30:24 Speaker 3: This is what I do now is I always look

30:26 Speaker 3: at what comes up first, and I look for the

30:28 Speaker 3: word sponsored. So I know that's a yes, at least

30:34 Speaker 3: it's labeled.

30:34 Speaker 2: But you can look for.

30:35 Speaker 1: That same thing if you google something.

30:37 Speaker 3: Right exactly look for that word sponsored, and then you

30:41 Speaker 3: know that person paid to have that there.

30:43 Speaker 2: It's not that they came up first because of ratings

30:45 Speaker 2: or because.

30:46 Speaker 1: A problem with that, especially since it's labeled.

30:50 Speaker 2: I'm just saying pay attention.

30:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's just because it comes up first, doesn't

30:54 Speaker 3: mean that's where you should click. You know, check out

30:57 Speaker 3: what comes up down underneath the sponsored off. The venue

31:01 Speaker 3: itself could potentially be selling tickets, right, you know, like

31:05 Speaker 3: the box office in Conquered, they don't they sell them

31:08 Speaker 3: right at the window.

31:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can.

31:10 Speaker 3: You can go and buy a ticket in person at

31:13 Speaker 3: their window. You don't have to go through ticket Master

31:15 Speaker 3: or a Live Nation to do that, right. Most venues

31:17 Speaker 3: still do that at least. Yeah, So look for that. Yeah,

31:20 Speaker 3: don't just snag that first one. Watch out for those

31:23 Speaker 3: sponsored Those are ads they're trying to get you to

31:25 Speaker 3: click on them. Yeah, So take a moment to peruse

31:28 Speaker 3: and if you can have the option of buying directly

31:31 Speaker 3: from the venue or the artists, do it, right, absolutely

31:35 Speaker 3: do it because that way, you know, the money is

31:38 Speaker 3: actually going to go back to the artists and the

31:41 Speaker 3: venue actually like these places are actually making the money

31:44 Speaker 3: versus Ticketmaster buying it. And right, yeah, you're basically feeding

31:51 Speaker 3: the multi millionaires that fly in private jets that they

31:53 Speaker 3: don't want to fly with you on commercial flight because

31:57 Speaker 3: they don't want to fly with the peasants.

31:58 Speaker 2: This is who we're up against. The giant people who.

32:02 Speaker 3: Have multi you know, they have giant houses, billionaires, and

32:06 Speaker 3: it's all about increasing that profit.

32:08 Speaker 2: For them more and more and more and more and more.

32:10 Speaker 2: It's never gonna be enough.

32:11 Speaker 3: So we have to curb this by encouraging this kind

32:14 Speaker 3: of legislation to protect the artists.

32:17 Speaker 2: And to get the money to go where it really

32:19 Speaker 2: should be.

32:20 Speaker 3: The bands that pay, you know, they pay in their

32:23 Speaker 3: blood and sweat from thousands of hours of practicing and

32:27 Speaker 3: go to put on a concert. You want the money

32:29 Speaker 3: to go to them as much as possible, So look

32:32 Speaker 3: for the options before you go and buy from Ticketmaster.

32:35 Speaker 3: If there is an alternative that is directly from the artist,

32:39 Speaker 3: or directly from the venue. That might be a better

32:43 Speaker 3: bet for your dollar, and it might be better priced