Matt Connarton Unleashed 10-18-25 hour 1

0:00 Speaker 1: Today's show is dedicated to the memory of Ace Frehley.

0:07 Speaker 1: You are listening to macconnorton Unleashed on WM and H

0:11 Speaker 1: ninety five point three and now the world radio premiere

0:15 Speaker 1: of the new single from Box of Trash. This is

0:18 Speaker 1: called Nightmare.

0:46 Speaker 2: Hello Lisby, how you planning there?

0:51 Speaker 3: Yes?

0:51 Speaker 2: Bye bye?

0:53 Speaker 4: How inside on what I say?

1:01 Speaker 5: It's meaning this?

1:04 Speaker 6: It's a chass piggy chatz to me in cessness now

1:09 Speaker 6: as something shakes me awaken that of Rusty Brock.

1:18 Speaker 7: I left you love such a night there.

1:24 Speaker 6: I just swam to the best, she said, She said me,

1:33 Speaker 6: yet what you wish for the games, saying that I

1:39 Speaker 6: wanted God.

1:44 Speaker 7: When I've sold you.

1:45 Speaker 8: Wow.

1:46 Speaker 9: So right now.

1:49 Speaker 6: Lost in town weather, Crown of the Lonely Ground.

1:56 Speaker 2: Something shakes me awake.

1:59 Speaker 10: That a ruse you from the book over.

2:02 Speaker 2: I let you know. I'm such a din there.

2:09 Speaker 10: I just walk due to care.

2:15 Speaker 2: I don't mean it anymore.

2:17 Speaker 11: That's something you're coming though, and.

2:18 Speaker 1: Nothing need be setting something my body turning.

2:21 Speaker 6: No, I just thought I let you know. She said,

3:07 Speaker 6: she said, she said, she said, she said, she said,

3:13 Speaker 6: she said, she said, she said.

3:19 Speaker 7: I never allowed such a nightmare.

3:27 Speaker 6: Wam es Yeah, I don't hate anyone that's a misnomodone.

3:35 Speaker 2: I did just set itself.

3:37 Speaker 4: Feel my body?

3:37 Speaker 2: Tell me now how you start? I let you know?

3:44 Speaker 2: Let you know.

4:16 Speaker 1: And now the world radio premiere of the new single

4:19 Speaker 1: from the Far North. This is called Mountain Sun.

4:22 Speaker 11: The way things change. I don't think I can guess

4:27 Speaker 11: your next to move. I miss you bird, your restrain

4:34 Speaker 11: on me. It's still so much to prove.

4:40 Speaker 12: You say that you'll change, so I'll leave your keeper

4:45 Speaker 12: the door.

4:48 Speaker 13: Soon after that it all fads to black, and I'm

4:52 Speaker 13: not so in loving mon.

5:02 Speaker 4: The gaps in my heart don't belong.

5:07 Speaker 2: Breed love?

5:11 Speaker 13: Can we go back camp again? Can we go back

5:17 Speaker 13: camp again? Every time I pen my feet, the rock

5:26 Speaker 13: post fly underneath.

5:30 Speaker 14: I get back off for.

5:32 Speaker 2: Another round to climb this mountain? You farm, You see

5:40 Speaker 2: that you'll change, So I leave your key about the door.

5:47 Speaker 2: Soon after that it all fits the black, and I'm

5:52 Speaker 2: not so ill loving Animore.

5:58 Speaker 5: Cold.

6:02 Speaker 13: The caps in my heart don't belong. Can't we go

6:12 Speaker 13: back and again? Can't we go back and again?

7:41 Speaker 1: And now the world radio premiere of the new single

7:44 Speaker 1: from the Painting. This is called Scarlet.

8:00 Speaker 2: Sat. I just wants you talk about like a thought.

8:15 Speaker 10: So how is it going to shut that to me?

8:26 Speaker 10: A new stars stock? Which is your stuff?

8:43 Speaker 2: Where do we come you be from? Star? Can we

8:57 Speaker 2: come out to talk.

9:01 Speaker 3: To you?

9:02 Speaker 2: Joe you Jos met.

9:16 Speaker 13: To Jose.

9:22 Speaker 2: Should just Sason, John.

9:47 Speaker 4: Lass Fellow Strong, we go.

10:31 Speaker 10: Just g s s principles, People fuck, Jos.

10:49 Speaker 15: Says now the world radio premiere of the new single

11:31 Speaker 15: from Dakota Avenue.

11:32 Speaker 1: This is the rollover, no phone.

11:45 Speaker 14: No biked, he was because with days from home, it's

11:48 Speaker 14: just the guns.

11:50 Speaker 16: Then let's play hot and see don't.

11:58 Speaker 4: Make any sounds of the death.

12:00 Speaker 16: I'll convince them it's me myself because if it has

12:06 Speaker 16: to be on my pue Ziah, if.

12:12 Speaker 2: It has to be, that's world.

12:15 Speaker 4: Rather lie.

12:18 Speaker 2: Because what you do is amazed. What should she used

12:23 Speaker 2: to do?

12:24 Speaker 17: Your life is amazing? This Amazon, it's wing is my favor.

12:36 Speaker 17: You're watching you is my favors.

12:40 Speaker 2: The long she roll over, I'm over in Broadcat.

12:51 Speaker 4: It's a safety. Don't try anything not to save me.

12:55 Speaker 4: It's the least I can do to.

12:59 Speaker 2: Repay your father things you do.

13:01 Speaker 16: Because if it has to be you love me, I'm sorry,

13:05 Speaker 16: it's just sad you everything it has to be you

13:09 Speaker 16: of me.

13:10 Speaker 2: It's world life. Yeah, because what you do is amazing.

13:15 Speaker 2: Is what should choose to do? Your li filemaz Christal Mazes.

13:25 Speaker 2: So she n is my famie. You know what you

13:32 Speaker 2: him is my favorite.

13:38 Speaker 4: Watching you.

13:39 Speaker 2: He is so dangerous. You're what your name is my favorite.

13:48 Speaker 4: Song?

13:49 Speaker 3: She love.

13:59 Speaker 8: Let me.

14:09 Speaker 16: Ergon on me.

14:15 Speaker 2: Ever as the beginning to it a bottles Ramos around

14:24 Speaker 2: Now mutine is my fame. It's bottles and Rammas around.

14:30 Speaker 2: The Latin was so gay and joy the chin here

14:37 Speaker 2: is my game. It's a mont er Che is so

14:44 Speaker 2: gay this.

15:06 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome everybody, Here we go. It is that time again,

15:09 Speaker 1: Matt Connorton Unleashed and we are live from the studios

15:12 Speaker 1: of WMNH ninety five point three FM, Inglorious, Manchester, New Hampshire.

15:18 Speaker 1: You can stream the show anywhere. Go to Matt connorton

15:20 Speaker 1: dot com slash live for all your live streaming options,

15:23 Speaker 1: social media links, conduct and fos, archives, etc.

15:26 Speaker 18: Etc.

15:27 Speaker 1: Today is Saturday, October eighteen, twenty twenty five. Jenny is

15:33 Speaker 1: not here. She's got a big event coming up today

15:35 Speaker 1: in Conquered, but we do have a couple of fine

15:39 Speaker 1: gentlemen here joining us via Microsoft teams. So I'll introduce

15:42 Speaker 1: first someone longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,

15:49 Speaker 1: how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,

15:52 Speaker 1: Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and

15:55 Speaker 1: Eric's been a part of this show off and on

15:58 Speaker 1: for years now, years and years. So but I did

16:01 Speaker 1: there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co

16:04 Speaker 1: host the the hour one segment with me this morning,

16:08 Speaker 1: because we also have with us David Shabbaz David, and

16:11 Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing your last name correctly, Shabbaz David. Shabbaz is

16:18 Speaker 1: with us, and David welcome to the show. Of course.

16:21 Speaker 1: Uh David is an author and a journalist, and of

16:24 Speaker 1: course is the author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's

16:28 Speaker 1: Black World Champions, the third edition. And uh, So, David,

16:32 Speaker 1: we're excited to talk to you because Eric and I,

16:34 Speaker 1: of course we're both lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and

16:39 Speaker 1: so I was thrilled when you reached out to us

16:42 Speaker 1: about coming on the coming on the show. And it's

16:45 Speaker 1: great to have here. And congratulations on the third edition

16:48 Speaker 1: of the book. That's pretty cool.

16:50 Speaker 18: Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here with.

16:52 Speaker 1: You both, absolutely, So first thing I'd like to know

16:57 Speaker 1: from you is why did you Why did you the book?

17:00 Speaker 1: What was your inspiration for doing this?

17:04 Speaker 9: Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to

17:08 Speaker 9: keep it a little short. This particular book, I really

17:12 Speaker 9: wrote this book to further my brother's legacy. My brother

17:17 Speaker 9: Julian was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,

17:24 Speaker 9: and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,

17:29 Speaker 9: I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's

17:33 Speaker 9: Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook

17:38 Speaker 9: that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying

17:45 Speaker 9: tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition

17:50 Speaker 9: out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be

17:53 Speaker 9: good because there had been a few more wrestlers at

17:57 Speaker 9: that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who

18:01 Speaker 9: were profiled, and if you more had actually won the

18:05 Speaker 9: title in twenty two, and so I put that second

18:09 Speaker 9: edition out and this is the third, which is larger.

18:15 Speaker 9: It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,

18:19 Speaker 9: and this one is a little more of me, if

18:22 Speaker 9: you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.

18:26 Speaker 1: Oh, that's outstanding, and I really like the way that.

18:30 Speaker 1: So you open the book with, well, there's a lot

18:34 Speaker 1: of information in this book, but you open it with

18:36 Speaker 1: that scene. And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly

18:40 Speaker 1: as well. You go back to that scene where Booker

18:44 Speaker 1: T and you gave the whole backstory, which is great.

18:46 Speaker 1: You go into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular.

18:48 Speaker 1: But Booker T is in WWE was had it switched in?

18:53 Speaker 1: I forget? Was it still wwfford it changed at that point?

18:58 Speaker 3: Go ahead, Eric to seeing the WWE switch happened in

19:04 Speaker 3: two thousand and two.

19:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.

19:12 Speaker 18: Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It

19:15 Speaker 18: was Matt was two thousand and three.

19:17 Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha.

19:19 Speaker 3: So if it was the infamous Booker T Triple H

19:26 Speaker 3: Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two thousand

19:30 Speaker 3: and three. And I want to say, as a Triple

19:35 Speaker 3: H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes on

19:39 Speaker 3: his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,

19:45 Speaker 3: and I'm sorry to go into the woods here. I

19:47 Speaker 3: remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,

19:53 Speaker 3: being uncomfortable.

19:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, watching.

19:59 Speaker 3: Yes you I mean, sorry to say this, but he

20:07 Speaker 3: stopped short of calling Booker t boy.

20:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some

20:14 Speaker 1: racial overtones h to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke

20:17 Speaker 1: and and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it

20:21 Speaker 1: was intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective

20:23 Speaker 1: it was, but but it was not you know what

20:26 Speaker 1: I mean, But but it was it was not subtle.

20:29 Speaker 1: And I thought that, David, I thought that that was

20:31 Speaker 1: a perfect way to open the book, talking about that

20:34 Speaker 1: specific promo and that storyline, and and of course for

20:39 Speaker 1: wrestling fans who are are familiar with that, that whole uh,

20:42 Speaker 1: that whole angle, we know that uh the hero did

20:45 Speaker 1: not prevail uh at uh at WrestleMania and did not

20:48 Speaker 1: win the title, which a lot of people at the

20:51 Speaker 1: time thought was a mistake, and many people still think

20:53 Speaker 1: that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you

20:57 Speaker 1: when you open the book with that, was it was

21:01 Speaker 1: it obvious to you that that was the one to

21:04 Speaker 1: go with or or did you have to kind of

21:06 Speaker 1: make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if you

21:09 Speaker 1: were to ask me about a racially tinged to put

21:14 Speaker 1: it lightly angle in in you know, quote unquote modern

21:19 Speaker 1: day WWE. I would that's probably the first one I

21:22 Speaker 1: would think of. But I'm curious, I mean, were there

21:24 Speaker 1: other Were there other options as far as what the

21:27 Speaker 1: opening scene was going to be in the book to

21:29 Speaker 1: kind of to kind of set up the book.

21:32 Speaker 9: No, not at all, because the title of the book

21:37 Speaker 9: is Pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is

21:40 Speaker 9: saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,

21:45 Speaker 9: and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,

21:47 Speaker 9: that was there was no other choice.

21:49 Speaker 18: That was the appropriate text to use for this.

21:52 Speaker 1: Absolutely, no, No, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,

21:56 Speaker 1: And you know in Booker T is such a great

21:58 Speaker 1: talent too, and he was you know that I used

22:02 Speaker 1: to love that catchphrase five times, five times, five times

22:05 Speaker 1: world champion and which he.

22:08 Speaker 18: Actually said six times that promo.

22:12 Speaker 1: You do you pointed that out in the book, Yeah,

22:15 Speaker 1: which was great.

22:17 Speaker 3: Eaved a question, And actually I wanted something to the

22:23 Speaker 3: Booker T story. I've actually heard through various shoot interviews

22:29 Speaker 3: that Rick Flair had.

22:32 Speaker 7: A lot to do with that promo.

22:36 Speaker 1: That's interesting.

22:38 Speaker 9: Probably, I mean because Rick Rick was there in the

22:41 Speaker 9: ring with Triple H though he didn't say anything, but

22:45 Speaker 9: but he's there in his corner.

22:48 Speaker 7: I mean a lot of There are a few African

22:52 Speaker 7: Americans that have said and even.

23:00 Speaker 3: Occasion wrestlers have said Rick Flair is by proxy a

23:06 Speaker 3: very I don't want to say racist individual, but definitely

23:11 Speaker 3: has said racist statements. And I have heard that that

23:15 Speaker 3: notorious promo Rick Flair kind of fed Triple H things

23:20 Speaker 3: to say at the right.

23:25 Speaker 7: I think it was, I want to say, and I

23:28 Speaker 7: could be wrong.

23:29 Speaker 3: I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory

23:32 Speaker 3: can serve you horribly.

23:35 Speaker 7: I wanted was Bruce Pritchard that said it on.

23:40 Speaker 3: Something to wrestle when they were talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania

23:45 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. I believe it was, yes, and I believe

23:52 Speaker 3: he said that Vince and Rick were kind of.

23:59 Speaker 7: Behind that.

24:01 Speaker 1: Mmmm. Wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what what do you say, David.

24:05 Speaker 18: Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether

24:11 Speaker 18: that was true or not. I do know.

24:15 Speaker 9: I'm a large segment of the black community really likes

24:19 Speaker 9: Ric Flair. I mean, I don't truly think that Rick

24:22 Speaker 9: would purposely try to insult, you know, it's fan.

24:25 Speaker 18: Base like that.

24:27 Speaker 1: But I don't know that is a good point you make, David,

24:29 Speaker 1: because the hip hop community really in a big way,

24:34 Speaker 1: strangely late in his career, but really embraced has embraced

24:38 Speaker 1: Ric Flair in a lot of ways. So that's yeah,

24:40 Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting point too. But but yeah, go

24:46 Speaker 1: ahead of Eric Prais.

24:48 Speaker 7: By any stratch. Yeah, I say that, you know, and David,

24:54 Speaker 7: I'm sure can that sound uh prog wrestling and.

25:02 Speaker 3: Up until I would say probably the late eighties when

25:06 Speaker 3: WCW made Ron Simmons world champion was a good boys

25:14 Speaker 3: network so to speak. It really wrestling has a very

25:20 Speaker 3: complicated history with African.

25:24 Speaker 12: Americans and it's very sad. I mean to the point

25:28 Speaker 12: where you had a very great talent in WWE named

25:34 Speaker 12: bad News Brown.

25:35 Speaker 3: Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler.

25:45 Speaker 7: But when he Alan Cosage.

25:47 Speaker 3: But when he got to WWE, they made in this

25:51 Speaker 3: militant African American from Harlem.

25:56 Speaker 7: I mean things like that, where you are guys that

26:00 Speaker 7: were in Stampede that's like no, uh Brown could go.

26:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was his.

26:08 Speaker 7: Page in Stampede Historically.

26:11 Speaker 1: Uh, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in uh,

26:15 Speaker 1: in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say

26:17 Speaker 1: until recently, I mean I think I think wrestling has

26:20 Speaker 1: changed a lot, but but yeah, historically, uh, there has

26:23 Speaker 1: been there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.

26:29 Speaker 3: I guess my question for David is, in going through

26:32 Speaker 3: all of that, did you was there ever, I guess

26:37 Speaker 3: anger that rows up in you when you would I'm

26:40 Speaker 3: sure in your research you encountered this. Was there ever

26:45 Speaker 3: that anger that you're like, wow, Uh, this is awful,

26:49 Speaker 3: this is horrible.

26:50 Speaker 7: I mean, there's long been the story of Bill Watts

26:55 Speaker 7: in a bathroom dropping.

26:58 Speaker 3: That's about Junkyard Doll and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets

27:04 Speaker 3: and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE.

27:09 Speaker 7: Then WW So, was there ever a sense of anger?

27:13 Speaker 3: And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out? No?

27:21 Speaker 18: Not at all.

27:22 Speaker 9: And I don't want to get off track, but I

27:27 Speaker 9: really hate it when people are driven by negative energy.

27:33 Speaker 9: Somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now I'm

27:36 Speaker 9: gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,

27:40 Speaker 9: and I don't think that's sustainable, and I don't like.

27:44 Speaker 9: My focus comes from my desire and what I want

27:47 Speaker 9: to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say.

27:49 Speaker 18: My internal worth and internal value and my focus is

27:54 Speaker 18: strong enough.

27:54 Speaker 9: I don't need somebody on the outside to make me

27:58 Speaker 9: upset to make me want to do something or excel

28:01 Speaker 9: in it. I really hate when people say I'm using

28:03 Speaker 9: my haters as my motivators.

28:05 Speaker 18: No, I don't know.

28:06 Speaker 9: That's negative energy for me. Yeah, so no, that was

28:10 Speaker 9: never really anything that drove me. And like you said,

28:13 Speaker 9: I've been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost

28:18 Speaker 9: fifty six. I've been watching wrestling, uh all of my life.

28:23 Speaker 9: So yes, I've seen a lot of those stories. I've

28:27 Speaker 9: seen the racism. So it wasn't really anything that that

28:30 Speaker 9: that really.

28:32 Speaker 18: Surprised me in a way that would make me really

28:35 Speaker 18: upset about it.

28:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense because the book itself is very positive.

28:39 Speaker 1: You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,

28:41 Speaker 1: you you share the scene about a booker T and

28:44 Speaker 1: Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,

28:47 Speaker 1: you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who

28:51 Speaker 1: had become many world champions, or uh tag team champions

28:55 Speaker 1: and so forth, and and it's a very positive read.

28:59 Speaker 1: I I was Prettyarticularly I especially enjoyed the part about

29:03 Speaker 1: Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on

29:08 Speaker 1: television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,

29:11 Speaker 1: and I just thought it was so cool, you know,

29:13 Speaker 1: and they WCW at the time, you know, they they

29:16 Speaker 1: did make a kind of a big deal about you know,

29:20 Speaker 1: Ron Simmons is the first black World Champion. But it's

29:23 Speaker 1: funny though, in the moment watching it, I wasn't even

29:26 Speaker 1: thinking about that. I was just thinking because I was

29:27 Speaker 1: I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it was a

29:29 Speaker 1: surprise because he was substituting for was it was Sting, right,

29:34 Speaker 1: it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah, So I thought

29:37 Speaker 1: the whole thing was so cool, and I thought the

29:39 Speaker 1: finish of that match was just really cool too. Just

29:41 Speaker 1: everything about it was awesome, and I just remember I

29:43 Speaker 1: popped for it watching it on television. But but that

29:46 Speaker 1: was one of my favorite parts because that was a

29:48 Speaker 1: moment that really connected with me. And then you know,

29:51 Speaker 1: and of course, Ron Simmons went on to have a

29:53 Speaker 1: great career eventually in wwue s for Rouke and you know,

29:57 Speaker 1: just everything everything he went on to do was a

29:59 Speaker 1: maz But but that was such a that was such

30:03 Speaker 1: a huge moment, and uh and I love that and

30:06 Speaker 1: and I love the way you you know, the way

30:08 Speaker 1: you really took the time to go into a lot

30:10 Speaker 1: of detail giving the histories. Some of these black wrestlers

30:14 Speaker 1: were people I'd never even heard of, and some of them,

30:17 Speaker 1: obviously I was very familiar with, and some I was

30:20 Speaker 1: kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd for example. I

30:22 Speaker 1: knew who Ernie lad was, didn't know much about him.

30:24 Speaker 1: Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him

30:27 Speaker 1: reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.

30:31 Speaker 18: Yes, go ahead.

30:35 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, David, I'm I just wanted to say, I'm

30:38 Speaker 3: shocked that there hasn't been something more in depth done

30:42 Speaker 3: about Earning Lad.

30:46 Speaker 7: Just you want to talk about not just.

30:51 Speaker 3: To say call him an African American pro wrestling champion

30:58 Speaker 3: is in in my opinion, it trivializes him because he

31:03 Speaker 3: is paramount in the territory days.

31:07 Speaker 2: He is equally.

31:10 Speaker 3: A top I would say, top ten talent all time

31:15 Speaker 3: in the territory days.

31:17 Speaker 7: If it wasn't for him.

31:20 Speaker 3: You, I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near

31:25 Speaker 3: as successful as it was. Him and Jyde carried that

31:29 Speaker 3: promotion because if they were the top faces and to

31:35 Speaker 3: get heals over like the free Birds, Teddbasi and all

31:42 Speaker 3: those guys, you need powerhouse faces.

31:46 Speaker 7: And Ernie Ladd just you talk about a presence. Even

31:51 Speaker 7: watching the old deep footage.

31:53 Speaker 3: I have of him, he walks into the arena and

31:58 Speaker 3: your eyes are just drawn him. You're captivated, and he

32:02 Speaker 3: doesn't even have to say a word. So it's shocking

32:06 Speaker 3: to me that no one has done anything like book

32:12 Speaker 3: like major book wise or documentary wise on him. And

32:17 Speaker 3: to piggyback on what David said, I think it's because

32:20 Speaker 3: pro wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on

32:25 Speaker 3: negative and there was a lot of negative with Ernie

32:29 Speaker 3: Ladd there. You couldn't do a dark side of the

32:32 Speaker 3: ring on Big Yeah. You don't hear guys and shoot

32:38 Speaker 3: interviews go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd

32:42 Speaker 3: did this, so there isn't the notorious draw. But man,

32:48 Speaker 3: you talk about a talent and a guy that could

32:54 Speaker 3: guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell out

33:00 Speaker 3: the Sportatorium.

33:02 Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I've always been kind

33:06 Speaker 1: of aware of him, but I didn't know much about

33:07 Speaker 1: him until reading and reading the book.

33:10 Speaker 7: Ernie.

33:11 Speaker 3: Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the word

33:17 Speaker 3: it is thrown around.

33:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, David, I'm what you're saying.

33:26 Speaker 18: I mean, just his his physical presence.

33:28 Speaker 9: He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and

33:33 Speaker 9: and and of course then he would tell you I'm

33:36 Speaker 9: six foot nine, three pounds, you know, dis intimidating his

33:41 Speaker 9: words and his promos.

33:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I'm curious, boy, David, David, I'm

33:50 Speaker 1: curious who who did you research for the book? Who

33:54 Speaker 1: who's included in the book? Who you think are and

33:57 Speaker 1: there may be multiple examples, uh, the one who you

34:00 Speaker 1: are surprised that people don't know more about? Is there

34:04 Speaker 1: anyone in the book who you feel like, Wow, this

34:07 Speaker 1: person really contributed a lot to professional wrestling, and it's

34:10 Speaker 1: actually surprising that that people don't know more about this individual,

34:15 Speaker 1: or that they're not in the WWE Hall of Fame

34:17 Speaker 1: for example, or or any anybody. Do you feel that

34:20 Speaker 1: way about?

34:25 Speaker 9: Not really, I would I would say, well, Ernie Ladd

34:28 Speaker 9: for one, because the one thing that I didn't know

34:32 Speaker 9: about Ernie in the beginning was that in the Mid South,

34:36 Speaker 9: Ernie was the first African American booker.

34:39 Speaker 18: Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler. I mean

34:42 Speaker 18: that shows the kind of confidence that Bill Watts had

34:45 Speaker 18: in him to let him be a booker. Yeah, he

34:49 Speaker 18: was the first.

34:50 Speaker 9: So yet that surprised me. I would guess also in

34:54 Speaker 9: modern times now, I don't think people people understand Ron

35:02 Speaker 9: Killings are true now. I think they see the comedy side,

35:06 Speaker 9: and that's what Wwe wants him to keep portraying this

35:09 Speaker 9: this comedic person. But Ron Killings was like the first

35:17 Speaker 9: African American to have that nw A title, true, and

35:21 Speaker 9: I don't think people know that. And so, you know,

35:25 Speaker 9: and I thought he was going they were gonna let

35:27 Speaker 9: him be run Killings when he came out and cut

35:30 Speaker 9: his hair and everything and said, you know, put some

35:33 Speaker 9: respect on my name.

35:34 Speaker 18: I'm run Killings. I'm not a joke.

35:36 Speaker 9: And all of a sudden they killed that angle because

35:40 Speaker 9: it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,

35:43 Speaker 9: and it may have been.

35:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan

35:48 Speaker 1: with what they're doing with him. Which is a which

35:50 Speaker 1: is a terrible shame because he's incredible. He's incredibly talented.

35:55 Speaker 3: I yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree

36:00 Speaker 3: on killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth

36:04 Speaker 3: is so funny, Truth is so funny, and it's like.

36:09 Speaker 7: Truth can work.

36:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.

36:12 Speaker 3: So I used to watch the TNA weekly pay per

36:16 Speaker 3: views every week when you had to run for nine

36:21 Speaker 3: to ninety nine, and he had matches with aj Styles

36:26 Speaker 3: and you tell people that and they're like, okay, so

36:31 Speaker 3: what was it like a five to seven minute match,

36:34 Speaker 3: And oh well no, they were for ten fifteen minutes

36:40 Speaker 3: in a one hour, two hour program and they mayn't

36:43 Speaker 3: event it and they tore.

36:45 Speaker 7: The grounds down.

36:47 Speaker 3: So he I think right now, I dare say, Ron

36:53 Speaker 3: aren't truth has a very complicated legacy, and it's not

36:57 Speaker 3: his fault. We'll just see the comedy guy. And they

37:03 Speaker 3: blew sight of the matches he had with guys like

37:07 Speaker 3: Jeff Jarrett, raven A, j Stoneles, Christopher Daniels.

37:14 Speaker 7: Near the end of it NA, Ron, him and Christopher.

37:17 Speaker 3: Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man match on pay

37:21 Speaker 3: per view that should have been a top match that year.

37:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah, there's a lot to there's

37:31 Speaker 1: a lot to ron killings that a lot of fans

37:34 Speaker 1: don't realize, and you know, and to be able to

37:36 Speaker 1: still perform in the ring at what is he now,

37:38 Speaker 1: fifty three? I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,

37:41 Speaker 1: he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah, he deserves.

37:48 Speaker 7: He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.

37:50 Speaker 1: Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans

37:55 Speaker 1: for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,

37:58 Speaker 1: you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding

38:01 Speaker 1: people to this, right I mean, is do you have

38:04 Speaker 1: plans for a fourth edition? Or I don't know if

38:07 Speaker 1: you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's

38:09 Speaker 1: a lot to do, I know, but.

38:12 Speaker 9: Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,

38:16 Speaker 9: I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on

38:19 Speaker 9: and on and unless it's something really compelling. At least

38:23 Speaker 9: in my thought right now, I thought the only thing

38:27 Speaker 9: that could be added was the tag team champion. So

38:31 Speaker 9: I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,

38:35 Speaker 9: that's that's kind of.

38:36 Speaker 18: Going to put the punctuation on it.

38:38 Speaker 9: And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans

38:42 Speaker 9: right now for a fourth edition, but you never.

38:44 Speaker 1: Know, right right, by the way, so this is not

38:48 Speaker 1: this is not your first book or while it's a

38:51 Speaker 1: third edition, but I mean you've you've written other books,

38:53 Speaker 1: right can you? Can you tell us too this a

38:55 Speaker 1: little bit because I'm curious to learn more about your background, because,

38:58 Speaker 1: as I said, you know, you're an author and journal

39:00 Speaker 1: You've you've done a lot of other things too. I

39:02 Speaker 1: was looking at your website and I'm curious about more

39:05 Speaker 1: about your career in a broader sense.

39:08 Speaker 9: Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I

39:16 Speaker 9: was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news

39:23 Speaker 9: director when I was when I was actually in college,

39:27 Speaker 9: I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job

39:33 Speaker 9: even before I had graduated. My internship at the radio

39:37 Speaker 9: station in Columbia, South Carolina turned into a job for me.

39:41 Speaker 9: And so for the last twenty years, I've been a

39:46 Speaker 9: journalism professor because you don't really you didn't really make

39:52 Speaker 9: a lot of money being a journalist until you get,

39:55 Speaker 9: you know, to the level of NBC, NASH, ABC, you know,

40:01 Speaker 9: one of the national networks, not really making a whole

40:04 Speaker 9: lot of money uh, and not that it's about money.

40:08 Speaker 18: Because you know, you should do what you enjoy doing.

40:11 Speaker 9: But yeah, so I've been a college professor for the

40:16 Speaker 9: last twenty years. I have a PhD in communication. So yeah,

40:22 Speaker 9: that's that's that's sort of men in an overview.

40:28 Speaker 1: Yeah.

40:28 Speaker 18: One of my books is Public Enemy number one. Public

40:32 Speaker 18: Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.

40:35 Speaker 9: It was on the group Public Enemy, and also wrote yes, yes,

40:43 Speaker 9: that was a research study on.

40:48 Speaker 18: A couple of their music videos.

40:51 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric

40:54 Speaker 1: and I both would be interested in reading that. Very

40:56 Speaker 1: very cool. Huh.

40:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, Enemy fan Fight the Power yep video directed by

41:06 Speaker 3: Spike Lee.

41:07 Speaker 7: I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,

41:11 Speaker 7: films of Spike Lee.

41:13 Speaker 12: Yeah.

41:13 Speaker 1: When this show was on in afternoons and we were

41:16 Speaker 1: doing a lot of politics. When I was an afternoon drive,

41:18 Speaker 1: I would Fight the Power was one of my go tos.

41:21 Speaker 1: I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely. Oh

41:25 Speaker 1: that's very cool, very interesting, David. Wow.

41:28 Speaker 18: Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite?

41:34 Speaker 3: Yes?

41:34 Speaker 9: Oh, yes, the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came

41:39 Speaker 9: out I think in twenty nineteen.

41:42 Speaker 7: Love that movie.

41:44 Speaker 3: David, before you get into that, when Matt was on

41:47 Speaker 3: Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment called classic Film Reviews.

41:53 Speaker 3: We and for in February we would do a black

41:59 Speaker 3: History sega where I covered African American films.

42:02 Speaker 7: We actually covered Shaft and.

42:05 Speaker 3: Superfly, and that did a lot of conversation that I

42:11 Speaker 3: thought was very good.

42:13 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,

42:16 Speaker 1: not between Eric and I or anything, but but it

42:19 Speaker 1: was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether

42:21 Speaker 1: those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It

42:24 Speaker 1: did spark a lot of conversation that there was very

42:27 Speaker 1: positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.

42:31 Speaker 1: So so now I'm curious, David, So what led you

42:33 Speaker 1: into being a pro wrestling fan. How did you become

42:35 Speaker 1: because you, I assume since you were a kid, right,

42:38 Speaker 1: I feel like most of us get hooked on this one.

42:39 Speaker 1: We're children.

42:41 Speaker 18: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.

42:44 Speaker 9: I mean my family watched it, so it was always

42:47 Speaker 9: in the household. Mom, dead, grandmother, I mean.

42:50 Speaker 18: Everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little lifelong

42:55 Speaker 18: thing for me.

42:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights main event

43:00 Speaker 1: premiered on NBC and I watched the first one. You know,

43:04 Speaker 1: I had seen wrestling before that, I was never particularly

43:07 Speaker 1: into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday

43:09 Speaker 1: as my main event, and something about it hooked me.

43:11 Speaker 1: In fact, I remember one of the matches. It was

43:13 Speaker 1: a squash match. It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around.

43:18 Speaker 1: I have no recollection of who his opponent was, and

43:20 Speaker 1: I just remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting.

43:22 Speaker 1: He's just beating the heck out of that guy. And

43:27 Speaker 1: I think the I think the big angle that night

43:29 Speaker 1: was the Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation

43:34 Speaker 1: in the Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was

43:36 Speaker 1: that was what hooked me. And then you know, I've

43:38 Speaker 1: I've been hooked on it ever since, and now Eric

43:40 Speaker 1: and I even do a podcast together about it called

43:42 Speaker 1: Tough Pumps. But did, I mean, did you ever, like

43:47 Speaker 1: when you started your career in journalism, did you already

43:50 Speaker 1: have ideas about writing writing books like this, actually writing

43:53 Speaker 1: about pro wrestling.

43:56 Speaker 18: No, not at all.

43:58 Speaker 9: And like I said, this was really just kind of

44:03 Speaker 9: trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and

44:07 Speaker 9: you know this wasn't something that he was really into

44:12 Speaker 9: as well in terms of writing his his books at

44:17 Speaker 9: the time was.

44:19 Speaker 18: Hip hop related.

44:21 Speaker 9: Uh he wrote The United States versus Hip Hop when

44:24 Speaker 9: they were looking at Public Enemy and uh luke two

44:29 Speaker 9: Live Crew and and and n.

44:30 Speaker 18: W A and those guys and and there was.

44:35 Speaker 9: Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the

44:38 Speaker 9: FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they

44:42 Speaker 9: sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning

44:46 Speaker 9: letter to the record labels about uh, those groups. And

44:50 Speaker 9: so that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,

44:53 Speaker 9: you can't you can't do that. So that was the

44:55 Speaker 9: kind of stuff that my brother was writing about, and

44:59 Speaker 9: he started he wrote that first book in nineteen ninety nine.

45:05 Speaker 9: It came out in nineteen ninety nine. He started working

45:07 Speaker 9: on it in nineteen ninety eight because Bobo Brazil died

45:12 Speaker 9: earlier that year, and then when Jyd died in like

45:16 Speaker 9: July of that year, it.

45:18 Speaker 18: Touched him so much that he started doing the research

45:21 Speaker 18: and wrote that book.

45:23 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so that led you to carrying on that legacy.

45:28 Speaker 1: That's that's remarkable, now, do you I mean, how dialed

45:32 Speaker 1: in are you to the current product. Do you do

45:33 Speaker 1: you watch every week? Do you keep up with everything

45:35 Speaker 1: or you know, are you are you a somewhat lapsed

45:38 Speaker 1: fan like some people are, or what's what's your current

45:41 Speaker 1: level of engagement with wrestling?

45:45 Speaker 18: I try to keep up with it as much as

45:47 Speaker 18: I can.

45:49 Speaker 9: I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,

45:53 Speaker 9: especially with with with a W back out.

45:56 Speaker 18: There now and you know, with having competition, but I

46:00 Speaker 18: I do try to try to keep up as much

46:01 Speaker 18: as I can.

46:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,

46:06 Speaker 1: Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.

46:08 Speaker 1: We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.

46:10 Speaker 1: We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that

46:13 Speaker 1: we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to

46:15 Speaker 1: keep keep up with everything online. But as far as

46:18 Speaker 1: what we're actually watching, it's yeah, it is. It's a lot.

46:21 Speaker 1: It's a lot of content to keep up with. So

46:26 Speaker 1: very good. Oh go ahead, Eric, Yes.

46:30 Speaker 7: Question for David.

46:32 Speaker 3: Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,

46:37 Speaker 3: I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.

46:40 Speaker 3: What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?

46:48 Speaker 1: Good question?

46:50 Speaker 9: I would have to say when I saw in person

46:57 Speaker 9: rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him

47:03 Speaker 9: as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came

47:06 Speaker 9: to a Y M c A in my hometown and

47:10 Speaker 9: I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle, and

47:12 Speaker 9: and that was great for me and the he was

47:17 Speaker 9: wrestling the Great Kabuki. Fans now may see the I

47:24 Speaker 9: can't think of the female's name now, the Japanese female

47:27 Speaker 9: now who spits uh.

47:32 Speaker 18: Oscar?

47:32 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that came from the.

47:35 Speaker 9: Great Kobuki who used to spit that mist in the

47:38 Speaker 9: person's eyes.

47:39 Speaker 18: And you know I saw them wrestle and that was

47:44 Speaker 18: that was like my earliest memory.

47:46 Speaker 7: Yeah, oh very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.

47:51 Speaker 3: Because out of here so many times per wrestling fans

47:55 Speaker 3: say the Great Muda when they talk about the Green

47:58 Speaker 3: mess or to Jerry, and it's like and me, I,

48:05 Speaker 3: I don't want to toot my own horn. I am

48:08 Speaker 3: I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,

48:13 Speaker 3: it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green

48:18 Speaker 3: mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when

48:24 Speaker 3: he did the when he did that it wasn't.

48:28 Speaker 7: It wasn't great mood A.

48:30 Speaker 3: Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you

48:36 Speaker 3: great Kabuki.

48:40 Speaker 1: Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The

48:43 Speaker 1: time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the

48:46 Speaker 1: top of the hour. But David, I want to make

48:49 Speaker 1: sure everyone knows again where'sh where's the best place to

48:52 Speaker 1: keep up with everything that you're doing, And of course

48:55 Speaker 1: the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions

48:59 Speaker 1: the third edition which is currently available, where people can

49:02 Speaker 1: get that anything you want our listeners to know about

49:04 Speaker 1: how to find you and follow you and connect with you.

49:08 Speaker 18: Probably the best way is my website which is David L.

49:14 Speaker 18: Shabaz and my name is there.

49:17 Speaker 9: So just just put an L in at s h

49:21 Speaker 9: A b a z z dot com because that's a

49:25 Speaker 9: central hub and you can find out about me.

49:28 Speaker 18: I have a little about section.

49:29 Speaker 9: There and all of my titles as a book titles

49:33 Speaker 9: that is as well as if they want to order it.

49:38 Speaker 9: You can order the book from the website and it

49:40 Speaker 9: has different online options, whether you want Amazon, the Barnes

49:44 Speaker 9: and Noble, or my author's website where you can get it,

49:51 Speaker 9: which is actually a little cheaper. I have a different

49:55 Speaker 9: distributor who does that one, so it's it's it's actually

49:58 Speaker 9: a little cheaper than the other routes. But uh yeah,

50:01 Speaker 9: through my website is probably the easiest way. But it's

50:04 Speaker 9: it's available online and in bookstores everywhere.

50:09 Speaker 1: Oh, excellent, excellent, Well, thank you so much for joining

50:12 Speaker 1: us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,

50:15 Speaker 1: The book is great. I love the book, and uh

50:18 Speaker 1: and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for

50:20 Speaker 1: the segment.

50:22 Speaker 3: I just feel like it was awesome to talk with

50:27 Speaker 3: someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.

50:35 Speaker 3: You can tell it's a labor a love, and I

50:39 Speaker 3: love what I really like what you said about not

50:44 Speaker 3: about not being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt

50:50 Speaker 3: and I have said this on our podcast several times.

50:53 Speaker 3: In pro wrestling, I think we're we're even guilty of it.

50:58 Speaker 3: We focus on the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious.

51:05 Speaker 3: People love the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it

51:10 Speaker 3: isn't all bad, you know there, It isn't all awful

51:16 Speaker 3: there for every you know, I hate to bring them

51:21 Speaker 3: up for every Chris Ben Moah, there's.

51:25 Speaker 7: There's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.

51:31 Speaker 3: It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen

51:38 Speaker 3: to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.

51:44 Speaker 7: Champions like Booker t and.

51:48 Speaker 3: Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,

51:56 Speaker 3: and the way that you've chosen to do it with

52:00 Speaker 3: such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.

52:05 Speaker 9: So thank you for that, David, Oh, no problem, thank you,

52:10 Speaker 9: I mean, And that's that that was the spirit that

52:12 Speaker 9: my brother started with. I mean when he when he

52:16 Speaker 9: wrote it, it was trying to be celebratory of the wrestlers,

52:20 Speaker 9: and people were asking him at the time questions about

52:24 Speaker 9: racism and that kind of thing, and he was like, this,

52:26 Speaker 9: this is this book is not about.

52:28 Speaker 18: Racism and wrestling.

52:29 Speaker 9: It's just trying to praise those wrestlers and give them

52:34 Speaker 9: their credit. Because that's that was his initial drive. He

52:37 Speaker 9: saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they just died,

52:44 Speaker 9: you know, and and it's like there's very little coverage,

52:48 Speaker 9: like nobody's saying anything about it, and so that's what

52:52 Speaker 9: started him writing. It's always been in that spirit of

52:55 Speaker 9: positivity and just trying to shed light and trying to

52:57 Speaker 9: enlighten people.

52:58 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is excellent.

53:01 Speaker 7: Negativity in anything. It's easy to it's easy to be.

53:08 Speaker 2: Yeah.

53:09 Speaker 7: Yeah, the positivity of it is amazing.

53:14 Speaker 3: And really, uh again, just I've loved this entire interview

53:20 Speaker 3: with you to hear the the positive view and the

53:26 Speaker 3: fact that you brought up Ernie Ladd being an African

53:29 Speaker 3: American booker, not just in mid Now, but in general.

53:34 Speaker 7: It just adds to the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David,

53:38 Speaker 7: maybe if I can put a little idea in your

53:41 Speaker 7: head Ernie Ernie book.

53:46 Speaker 9: I'll consider it. He definitely is one of those compelling figures.

53:53 Speaker 9: And you know, and and he and several other guys

53:57 Speaker 9: around that period. You know, they wrestled initially in the

54:03 Speaker 9: off season to stay in shape for football, but Ernie

54:07 Speaker 9: said he made more money in wrestling, so that's why

54:10 Speaker 9: he stopped playing football exactly.

54:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that was that was interesting. That is

54:15 Speaker 1: in the book, and uh yeah, I thought that was

54:17 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Well, we gotta we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.

54:20 Speaker 1: But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World,

54:23 Speaker 1: Champions third edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much

54:27 Speaker 1: for joining us and we'll definitely talk again in the future.

54:29 Speaker 1: This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.

54:32 Speaker 18: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you got it,

54:34 Speaker 18: You got it.

54:34 Speaker 1: And Eric, as always, thank you, my friend.

54:38 Speaker 7: Yes, thank you, Matt, thank you, David.

54:40 Speaker 1: All Right, guys, thank you and uh for those of

54:43 Speaker 1: you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.

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