Matt Connarton Unleashed: Bruno Mars vs. Miley Cyrus

0:00 Speaker 1: Something else I wanted to talk about. And this has been going on for I don't know, a couple of years now, I guess, but you know, we do like to talk about these things that are going on in the music industry. Sometimes there is controversy and lawsuits and things like that. We talk a lot about AI and the effects of AI on music. But here's but this also kind of relates to a subject that comes up not only on this program, this particular news item, but also that comes up on retro Spectrum Radio with Polly C. Of course, if you don't know, I'm also Paully C's co host on Friday nights on retro Spectrum Radio here at WM and H. And we've done a number of shows now that Paul is put together on that show where we talk about plagiarism and artists suing other artists for plagiarism.

0:50 Speaker 1: In fact, we've done a couple of episodes entirely dedicated to led Zeppelin, the most plagiaristic Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan, but the most plagiarism stick band and music history. They've they even stole a song. Not only did they steal from a lot of blues artists. They even stole a song from Joan Bias. Yeah, it's wild. So you know, you can go back and check those out. And by the way, so when we're on when we do these shows on Retrospectrum Radio, you know, we'll we'll all kind of put our two cents in.

1:19 Speaker 1: Okay, is this a plagiarism or or is this someone making a false accusation? Is this particular song not plagiarized?

1:28 Speaker 2: You know?

1:28 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm the most lenient when it comes to that. I'm usually the first one to say not guilty. I don't think this particular instance is an act of plagiarism because I just I look at it as there are certain certain chord progressions that are just very common throughout pop music, and certain lyrical themes of course, and lyrical themes is gonna that's gonna play a part in what we're about to talk about this particular lawsuit and controversy. Certain lyrical themes that are very common, and you know, so, so I'm the least likely to say guilty, I think that this person committed plagiarism.

2:07 Speaker 1: I mean, there's some instances that are just undeniable, like like when Led Zeppelin stole all that music from those old blues artists, which they have been sued for in some instances successfully, in some instances not so much. But h but this one, the particular one, and this one we have not talked about on Retrospectrum Radio because this is something recent and we wouldn't on that show. We wouldn't talk about something as recent as this. But some of you may have heard, of course about the Miley cyrus Her song Flowers being sued by not actually by Bruno Mars directly, but by people who own a stake in the Bruno Mars song When I Was Your Man.

2:47 Speaker 1: And this one, this particular instance of someone claiming copyright infringement, this particular one drives me nuts. This one is really a reach, in my opinion. What do you what do you think, Jenny, do do you think this one's Yeah, this one, this one's a stretch. So this is frivolous, now, Jenny, Jenny found something that will give us an update on what's going on with this. But for those who don't know about this, yeah, this is frivolous, all right. So this is I've got an article here from Forbes that I think is the best explainer of what the initial lawsuit is about.

3:24 Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus tries uh tries getting suit that claims Flowers copied a Bruno Mars song dismissed. So this article is from last year, but it uh, and there have been multiple attempts, by the way to get this lawsuit thrown out. And I think it should be thrown out because I think it's ridiculous. But uh, you know, and I'm not you know, I don't have any personal stake in this, by the way. I'm not particularly a fan of either artist. I I respect them both tremendously. Of course. Miley Cyrus is an incredible singer and I certainly and Bruno Mars, you know, I respect as a singer and a songwriter and whatnot.

3:59 Speaker 1: I'm just neither of them have really put out anything that I personally am that into, but I do. Uh, but I respect them, of course. But here's so this is the explainer from Forbes Okay. Attorneys representing singer Miley Cyrus filed the motion in LA federal court to dismiss a lawsuit claiming that her song Flowers lifts lyrics and melodies from the twenty thirteen Bruno Mars song When I Was Your Man, arguing the lawsuit should be tossed because it only represents one of the songs for writers and not Bruno Mars himself, So it's not Bruno Mars.

4:33 Speaker 1: Bruno Mars is not the one bringing the lawsuit himself, but it involves his song when I Was Your Man. When I Was Your Man? Is that what it's called? Anyway, I'm so not a fan of I don't like the song to begin with when.

4:49 Speaker 2: I Was Your Man.

4:49 Speaker 1: Yet, I don't like the song to begin with but anyway, So here are some key facts. Cyrus's attorneys argue the company that filed the lawsuit, Tempo Music Investments and Investment Group, that it has acquired the rights to various artists catalogs, does not have standing to sue because it only owns a portion of the rights to the song. Temple Music previously acquired the rights to songwriter Philip Lawrence's catalog, so he's one of the writers of the song. Cyrus's attorneys say the Copyright Act only permits quote a legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive copyright unquote to sue for infringement.

5:24 Speaker 1: So, in other words, they're saying that the people bringing the lawsuit, they have not been harmed in any way, this doesn't affect them, and so forth. I'm kind of skipping through this because I want to get to the part where it explains why the suit itself is silly. Okay, So, Cyrus's attorneys claim the two songs have quote striking differences in melody, chords, other musical elements and words unquote, stating the plaintiff's claim the songs share quote musical building blocks unquote, including some chords and pitches, would not be protected by copyright law.

6:02 Speaker 1: So, in other words, my ree, Cyrus's lawyers are saying the two songs are really different. So you know, again, it's a reach. To suggest that there's a claim here of any kind is really a stretch, and we'll get into a little bit more of that in a moment, but okay. Forbes has reached out to Cyrus's lawyers and Tempo Music Investments for comment. Tempo Music Investments sued Cyrus, as well as companies that says distributed the song Flowers, including Sony Music, Apple, Target, and Walmart, alleging copyright infringement.

6:44 Speaker 1: The lawsuit alleged the song Flowers would not exist without the exploitation of Mars's song. Quote. Any fan of Bruno Mars's song When I Was Your Man knows that my resse Virus's Flowers did not achieve all of that success on its own unquote. The lawsuit states alleging that Flowers lifts quote numerous melodic, harmonic and lyrical elements of When I Was Your Man unquote. So here's the heart of the matter. The chorus of Flowers does appear to lift some of these statements. In the chorus of When I Was Your Man.

7:27 Speaker 1: In Flowers and Ode to Independence, Cyrus sings, quote, I can buy myself flowers, write my name in the sand, talk to myself for hours, say things you don't understand. I can take myself dancing. I can hold my own hand unquote. In the Bruno Mars song about a man expressing regret for failing to treat his lover well, he sings, quote, I should have bought you flowers and held your hand, should have gave you all my hours when I had the chance, take you you to every party, because all you wanted to do was dance.

8:04 Speaker 1: Unquote. Now let me just stop here for a moment. Obviously, yes, the song, the lyrics of the song that I mean, you could make this argument. The lyrics of the song Flowers by Miley Cyrus do seem to be what I would say, And we talked about this in the car. It's a direct response to the Bruno Mars song. Yes, that's not copyright infringement. That is referencing somebody else's creative work, referring to it. That's not the same thing as lifting elements from it.

8:43 Speaker 3: If this is allowed to if this case prevails, it changes everything. You can't talk about anybody anymore. You can't say anybody else's name.

8:55 Speaker 1: Maybe you can't write, Maybe you can't write songs about flowers because because Bruno Mars had a song that mentioned flowers.

9:03 Speaker 3: Artists mentioned each other in songs all the time, you know, and play off of each other, sometimes.

9:09 Speaker 4: Good, sometimes bad.

9:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's you know, like there's tons of other rappers. Well yeah, of course, so all.

9:16 Speaker 3: Rappers will get dude who listed another rapper in their song, because that happens a lot.

9:20 Speaker 1: There's tons of examples of this in pop history. You know, I don't think you know when when Leonard Skinnard mentions in Sweet Home, Alabama, you know, I hope Neil Neil Young will remember the Southern Man. Don't need him around anyhow, you know, A direct response to Neil Young song Southern Man, Neil Young didn't sue them, say, oh, they they referenced my song, I'm gonna sue them, you know, I mean. And that was a very direct response. That was that was clear and unambiguous. Granted it was a they had a rivalry, but it was a friendly rivalry that there was a lot of mutual respect.

9:52 Speaker 1: But but but but but that's or or when uh in Surrender, when uh a cheap trick? They actually mentioned and kiss my name, you know in the song surrender.

10:04 Speaker 3: Well, like we were talking in the car. Tori Amos and Trent Wesner have referenced each other in various ways in seeing each other's song lyrics and for topics. There's a one of Tory's songs mentions nine inch nails. But it's it's it's in, it's in reverence of one another. It's not even it's nothing bad. But one of the caveats about this case that I want to point out is that the person that is suing bought this half of the song as part of a catalog package. They weren't even in the picture when the song was created.

10:40 Speaker 3: They had nothing to do with it, zero to do it. Well, they're not a co writer, nobody.

10:47 Speaker 4: They bought the.

10:48 Speaker 3: Catalog, so now they own half the rights of this song and they're looking for a quick, get rich quick scheme.

10:56 Speaker 4: It's scammy use of the chords.

10:58 Speaker 3: It's totally frivolous, and it should be thrown out with prejudice.

11:02 Speaker 4: In my opinion, I thought that's not what happened.

11:05 Speaker 1: Yeah, it also says here. Cyrus released Flowers in January twenty twenty three, and it became one of the year's biggest hits. Flowers has been streamed more than two billion times on Spotify and won Cyrus two Grammy Awards for Record of the Year and Best Pop Solo Performance. When Cyrus released Flowers, fans noticed the similarities between the two songs, even causing When I Was Your Man to rise in streams. Billboard reported, so it made.

11:32 Speaker 4: The money made the song more.

11:33 Speaker 1: So that actually made the song more. It made the song it refers to more pop. And When I Was Your Man was already a huge hit. I just know that because I just remember hearing it a lot. But yeah, so it actually helped. It actually helped give When I Was Your Man a boost. So so again it's it's this, you know, this is all very silly. Let's see bill okay, Vanderbilt Law School again. This is from the Forbes article Vanderbilt Law School music law professor Joseph Fishman told Billboard Cyrus should not need to credit Mars and the other When I Was Your Man's songwriters, despite the similar lyrics.

12:16 Speaker 1: Even if the chorus of Flowers is deliberately a response to Mars's song because it does not appear to sample or interpolate the song's melodies. Quote, using one song to issue a retort to an earlier song is not, by itself infringement. John Mayer and Taylor Swift don't need to cross license everything when they write songs at each other. When I Was Your Man peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot one hundred and twenty thirteen and earned Mars a Grammy nomination. So that's that's where we are with.

12:56 Speaker 1: So that's what the suit is over. And by the way, so the songs them said, E don't sound anything alike. I will just pull up you know what, I'll play each of these just like to the chorus so you can hear. Oh maybe I can even find well, sorry, let me turn your mic back on. What's that?

13:15 Speaker 3: They're not similar, No, they're not similar. The only similarity is the mutual reference.

13:22 Speaker 5: You know.

13:22 Speaker 3: He's singing, I'm gonna buy I should have bought you flowers. She's singing, I can buy myself flowers. It's just a woman's response. Yeah, and I think it's a great response. I think it's a great song. Yeah, in that regard, In that regard, right, does it matter? But this lawsuit is just somebody trying to get which quick oh yeah, off of other people's work.

13:48 Speaker 1: I found something here on YouTube that kind of compares that kind of compares them. Let's let me play this just for for anyone who uh, you know, if you don't know the songs, and then you can make your own judgment here. But this is this is short, but it's a short dot comparison.

14:06 Speaker 5: To your two time to realize we were good.

14:12 Speaker 2: We were god kind of dream that can't be.

14:17 Speaker 5: So we were right until we won't build a home and wash it burns. I should have brought your flowers. Lugging Bomas and flowers, run my name and sing dreams should a gig a armor hours with the head versha and I can hold money, I can love me better.

14:55 Speaker 5: You can't let me take care of everybody because all you I wanted to do us to.

15:03 Speaker 2: I can take myself Patsy again, but she's dear soon with another move. Why do you want to leave you? I didn't want to lie side God.

15:19 Speaker 5: Then remember I Yeah, I can love me bitter.

15:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can love me bitter you cat baby.

15:49 Speaker 1: Okay, So there you go. There's a comparison, a side by side, the comparison to some of the parts of each song. Yeah, completely different. I mean again, one is referencing the other, but they're they're very different. They're they're different in vibe and style.

16:03 Speaker 3: If you can sue from a reference like that, then everything about music changes in every genre.

16:10 Speaker 4: Well, it's like it's it's just too much.

16:12 Speaker 1: Well, it's like the the Well you have.

16:14 Speaker 3: A sentence like that's similar to my sentence, So now I can sue you.

16:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's uh. And again you could say the melodies. The melodies are vaguely similar, but again there are certain there are just certain chord progressions and melodies as well as lyrical themes that are just they're really common. And you know a great example of that. And and Tom Petty, I think, had the right attitude about this. If you're you know the song Danny California by the Chili Peppers, not Chili Peppers, that's my favorite Chili Pepper song. I always love that song. But when that song came out, people notice something about it.

16:55 Speaker 1: The not in the verses, but the chorus is exactly the same as Last Dance with Mary Jane. Oh no, I'm sorry, not the chorus, the verses, I have it backward. The verses are the same as Last Dance with Mary Jane by Tom Petty. Yeah, see exact same chord progression. It's even the same tempo, Like you could graft one on to the other. It's exactly the same. And somebody asked Tom Petty in an interview some I think it was a radio DJ asked him, or might have been in Rolling Stone, But somebody asked him because people were noticing this.

17:31 Speaker 1: You know, are you are you upset with the Chili Peppers? I don't know you Are you gonna sue them for stealing your song or something like that? And he said his response, which I thought was perfect, he said, well, if they stole it, they didn't steal it from me, they stole it from who from whoever I stole it from, because that chord progression is just very common. It's it's not it's not an original chord, you know. He's like, I didn't write that chord progression. Somebody somebody did. I don't know who, but I it somewhere.

18:00 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and he was right. He was right to say that it's a very common chord progression. So that so he had the right attitude about it. But what I'm also thinking about, too is who's the guy, oh, I forget his name now, British guy with red hair. He's got a bunch of hits ed Oh ed Sharon when they tried to sue ed Sharon claiming, what's the name of that song I'll Be Loving You? I don't know the actual name is there, I'll be Loving You when we're seventy or something, And I hate that song. But but they tried to sue him saying that because it had a similar vibe to Let's Get It On by Marvin Gay.

18:41 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a you know, in terms of the production of the song. It sounded similar to let's get it on and but he's been sued a few times too, and he never backs down to his credit, you know, he never settles, because again that's a that's another example of a very frivolous lie. It's like, okay, you can sue somebody because the vibe of the production style of their song is similar. Wow, like that the can of worms that would open up. So it's not right they walk away with money. Yeah, So so it's not right.

19:24 Speaker 1: By the way, I think, while we're at it, I think it would be interesting. I want to see, just quickly example of examples of songs that reference other songs, because again, what we're talking about with the Bruno Mars Miley Cyrus thing is you know, we gave some examples before, like a Cheap Trick referencing Kiss or Leonard skinnerd referencing Neil Young. Let's see, I just did a quick search. So here's some more examples. Uh, It's My Life by bon Jovie references for Rank Sinatra is My Way, Yes, absolutely, thunder Road by Bruce Springsteen mentions Roy Orbison, Come Together by The Beatles uses lyrics from Chuck berrys you Can't Catch Me.

20:12 Speaker 1: There's some artists here who are more obscure, like Nick Lowe. I mean, you know people who are really into indie music. No, Nick Lowe. He has a song called All Men Are Liars, which apparently directly references Rick Astley's Never Going to Give You Up. That one's kind of interesting. That's fun Yeah, that is funny. That is funny. But yeah, so I hope. So the latest on that you had the story? The update, There was an update from just a few days ago. Let me see if I can.

20:45 Speaker 4: Yeah, the basic gist of it is.

20:47 Speaker 1: That they're still trying to get it thrown out.

20:49 Speaker 3: Well they had tried, Yes, they were trying to get it thrown out, but it was denied.

20:54 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was trying to get a toss. It was denied.

20:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's from Fox Business. This judge denies Miley Cyrus's attempt to dismiss lawsuit comparing Flowers to Bruno Mars song. Temple Music and Miley Cyrus in September sued Miley Cyrus in September for similarities between the songs. Says here. A judge denied Cyrus's attempt to throw out copyright lawsuit against a pop star. Temple Music Investments lawsuit against Cyrus alleging similarities between her Grammy winning song Flowers and Bruno mars Is when I was her man will move forward after Judge Dan D. Pregeran Pregerson rather denied her requests.

21:31 Speaker 1: Tuesday, Fox Business can confirm Tempo Music acquired the rights to the song after buying the catalog of Philip Lawrence, a co author of the song. By the way, Yeah, and it just goes on. Basically this this dismissal failed, but we're in agreement. I think right that this this lawsuit is silly and schemes, so frivolous lawsuit should be dismissed.

21:56 Speaker 4: Should be totally dismissed with prejudice.

21:59 Speaker 1: We will keep an eye on it going forward.