Matt Connarton Unleashed: Limp Bizkit vs. UMG

0:00 Speaker 1: You know, we do talk.

0:01 Speaker 2: We know a lot of people in the industry listen

0:02 Speaker 2: to the show in the music industry, and we like

0:04 Speaker 2: to like to talk about things going on in the

0:07 Speaker 2: music industry. Unfortunately, a lot of what does go on

0:11 Speaker 2: in the music industry that is particularly fascinating is it

0:15 Speaker 2: often has to do with people suing each other.

0:17 Speaker 1: You know, I had put way back, remember when we

0:21 Speaker 1: did the segment.

0:21 Speaker 2: About Don Henley suing someone, because Don Henley is very litigious,

0:29 Speaker 2: that segment I had, I had clipped it and put

0:31 Speaker 2: it up on YouTube.

0:33 Speaker 1: And that is by far.

0:35 Speaker 2: The most listened to segment that we've ever done on

0:37 Speaker 2: the show. That still gets views on the YouTube, uh,

0:42 Speaker 2: on our on our YouTube channel.

0:44 Speaker 1: But what is what has been happening?

0:46 Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of new information here on

0:48 Speaker 2: this particular subject. You know, the band Limp Biscuit, they

0:53 Speaker 2: were they first got very big in the nineties and

0:57 Speaker 2: you know, they've had a resurgence and they do very

0:59 Speaker 2: well when they tour. And that that song was that

1:03 Speaker 2: song Dad Vibes, Uh maybe a year ago, maybe maybe longer,

1:07 Speaker 2: maybe two years ago now that I really like it

1:09 Speaker 2: was kind of kind of a comeback single. Maybe a

1:11 Speaker 2: year and a half ago, but yeah, you know I was.

1:15 Speaker 2: I was kind of a fan of Limp Biscuit. Uh

1:17 Speaker 2: back in the day too. I was in a band

1:21 Speaker 2: called I was in a band called the Jinx and

1:25 Speaker 2: wait was it in the Jinkster in My Life Crisis.

1:28 Speaker 2: Our singer Rhino Ryan Pope, he would well. At one

1:32 Speaker 2: point we were covering the song break Stuff, and I

1:35 Speaker 2: wasn't a big fan of doing covers in the bands

1:38 Speaker 2: I was in because I felt that our originals were

1:40 Speaker 2: strong enough we didn't need to do a lot of covers.

1:41 Speaker 2: But they talked the guys talked me into doing break

1:44 Speaker 2: Stuff and the breakdown in that song where Fred Durst

1:48 Speaker 2: gets really intense and like really angry. Uh, Ryan would

1:54 Speaker 2: like would like turn red. He would get so into

1:57 Speaker 2: it and get so into that part of the song.

1:59 Speaker 2: It was fun anyway. So part of why this is

2:03 Speaker 2: so fascinating to me is this is not an uncommon tale.

2:06 Speaker 2: What we're going to talk about. If you don't know

2:07 Speaker 2: about about this, Limp Biscuit is suing their record label

2:12 Speaker 2: UMG Universal Music Group for two hundred million dollars in

2:18 Speaker 2: unpaid royalties. Now artists having to sue their record label.

2:25 Speaker 2: For unpaid royalties is not in and of itself a

2:27 Speaker 2: new story, but for two hundred million dollars is pretty

2:34 Speaker 2: staggering because what has happened is, according to Fred Durst

2:40 Speaker 2: and his representation, Universal Music Group never paid Lympiscuit anything

2:49 Speaker 2: after selling millions and millions and millions of albums.

2:53 Speaker 3: But they're claiming that's not true.

2:56 Speaker 1: UMG, Well of course they are.

2:58 Speaker 4: UMG says they Paidlympus get one point zero three million

3:02 Speaker 4: dollars in back royalties in August of twenty twenty four. Yes,

3:06 Speaker 4: after uh after wait, after the fact, yeah, yeah, after backwards.

3:10 Speaker 2: After after fred Durst spoke up and said, hey, I

3:13 Speaker 2: think you guys owe us some money. Yeah, so they finally,

3:16 Speaker 2: But olymp Biscuit is alleging they owe they owe them

3:20 Speaker 2: two hundred million or or a lower number plus damages

3:24 Speaker 2: however that works out.

3:26 Speaker 1: Now. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon tale. Though.

3:32 Speaker 2: There's a there's a term I learned recently, spaghetti accounting,

3:36 Speaker 2: and it's a way that these big labels and you know,

3:40 Speaker 2: and you even hear stories with smaller labels, independent labels,

3:44 Speaker 2: but hopefully a lot less because you don't you don't

3:47 Speaker 2: want to hear those stories because, uh, those stories are unpleasant,

3:53 Speaker 2: you know, because you know, especially in a venue like this,

3:55 Speaker 2: we always advocate for artists.

3:57 Speaker 1: But but it's not.

4:00 Speaker 2: Unusual for U record labels and other entities within the

4:04 Speaker 2: music industry to use some creative accounting, shall we say,

4:09 Speaker 2: or spaghetti accounting.

4:10 Speaker 1: That's a term that I just learned recently. And I

4:12 Speaker 1: learned that term for me. Yeah, oh, spaghetti accounting.

4:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I like spaghetti, but I don't

4:16 Speaker 2: think I'm a fan of spaghetti accounting.

4:19 Speaker 3: Must accounting when they get messy.

4:23 Speaker 2: I think that's the idea, so that way it's hard

4:25 Speaker 2: to figure out, uh, where all.

4:27 Speaker 1: That money went. I learned that term from.

4:31 Speaker 2: There's a YouTuber that I really like, uh who we've

4:33 Speaker 2: talked about taught music attorney and or law tuber. That's

4:38 Speaker 2: another term I learned recently, which is a a lawyer

4:41 Speaker 2: who youtubes does youtubing.

4:44 Speaker 1: What is it law tuber?

4:46 Speaker 3: Law tuber.

4:47 Speaker 1: Yes, there's a lot of law tubers. They're they're lawyers

4:49 Speaker 1: who do.

4:50 Speaker 3: We have to keep making up new works, like.

4:52 Speaker 2: Like the Might's Touched that, like the Might's Touch Network,

4:54 Speaker 2: which we're fans of, you know, they're law tubers. So yes,

4:57 Speaker 2: there's always new term. Young people are always coming up

5:00 Speaker 2: with new terms. Anyway, what was the one that I knew?

5:05 Speaker 1: There was a term that I.

5:06 Speaker 2: Knew that that DJ Reckless didn't know, and I was like,

5:10 Speaker 2: how do I know this?

5:11 Speaker 1: And you don't.

5:12 Speaker 3: Remember what it was?

5:14 Speaker 4: Oh?

5:14 Speaker 2: It was thought th h O T And I'm not

5:17 Speaker 2: gonna say and I'm not gonna say on the air

5:18 Speaker 2: what it means.

5:19 Speaker 1: But I was stunned.

5:22 Speaker 3: I don't even remember.

5:25 Speaker 2: I'll tell you off, but I was stunned that he

5:27 Speaker 2: that he didn't know what that meant and I did.

5:29 Speaker 2: But anyway, but it's not it's not a nice uh

5:31 Speaker 2: it's not a nice term.

5:33 Speaker 1: But and it's not yeah yeah, right, right exactly.

5:41 Speaker 4: But uh U n G at this point is trying

5:44 Speaker 4: to say this whole thing should be thrown out because.

5:46 Speaker 3: They're making it up. Right, Oh, of course making this up,

5:50 Speaker 3: that's what they're saying.

5:51 Speaker 2: Of course, now what they also claim, So people who

5:56 Speaker 2: don't know how this works with major labels, when a

5:59 Speaker 2: major label signs you, they give you When they sign

6:03 Speaker 2: you and they're they're gonna release your album, they give

6:06 Speaker 2: you they give you an advance on that album. So say,

6:09 Speaker 2: for example, we'll use nice, big round numbers because I'm

6:13 Speaker 2: not good at math, so it makes it easier for me,

6:16 Speaker 2: but it also makes it easier to explain these concepts

6:18 Speaker 2: for people who don't know how this works. So because

6:22 Speaker 2: I think people outside of the industry have this idea

6:25 Speaker 2: that a record label signs you and they give you

6:29 Speaker 2: tons of money up front, and now you're suddenly a

6:31 Speaker 2: millionaire and you're being flown out to LA and you're

6:36 Speaker 2: put up in the Playboy Mansion or something, and and

6:39 Speaker 2: you're surrounded by supermodels all day and everything. I think,

6:43 Speaker 2: at least I think there was a time when that

6:45 Speaker 2: was the general perception that people had about how this

6:48 Speaker 2: this music industry works.

6:50 Speaker 1: And it's not.

6:53 Speaker 2: The money that you're giving up front is actually an

6:55 Speaker 2: advance so they give you. So say they give you

6:58 Speaker 2: a million dollar advance, and again I'm using big round numbers.

7:01 Speaker 2: But let's say they give you a million dollar advance

7:05 Speaker 2: that's to make your album. So you're going to spend

7:09 Speaker 2: that money that's not like your money to just put

7:12 Speaker 2: into your bank account. And now you're a millionaire and

7:15 Speaker 2: you get to go make your album. But now you're

7:17 Speaker 2: a millionaire because you're about to be famous or you're

7:20 Speaker 2: already becoming famous. It doesn't work that way. So that's

7:23 Speaker 2: actually an advance on your earnings. So they're giving you

7:26 Speaker 2: that money, they're investing that money in you, giving you

7:28 Speaker 2: that money upfront for you to go and spend on

7:31 Speaker 2: making your album. Now, what some artists might do in

7:35 Speaker 2: a situation like that, they get that million dollar advance,

7:41 Speaker 2: but they're only going to spend a half a million

7:44 Speaker 2: making their album, you know, So there are ways to

7:47 Speaker 2: do that. Tom Scholz from Boston famously or infamously did

7:56 Speaker 2: something like that where the label advanced them something like

8:02 Speaker 2: the label advanced some some something like fifty grand and

8:05 Speaker 2: he made the record for fifteen hundred dollars at home,

8:09 Speaker 2: in his home studio or something like that.

8:10 Speaker 3: That's awesome.

8:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, so so so that.

8:14 Speaker 2: That that does happen. But but again it's not they're

8:17 Speaker 2: not paying you this money to keep. It's an advance,

8:20 Speaker 2: and advance is recooped. So this term recoupment is where

8:25 Speaker 2: people can get tripped up. So they're gonna get that

8:28 Speaker 2: money back, and the way they're gonna get that money

8:31 Speaker 2: back is you make the album they release the album,

8:35 Speaker 2: they do all the promotion and everything, but they're gonna

8:39 Speaker 2: recoup that money they advanced to you that's not yours

8:41 Speaker 2: to keep and you which means you don't get anything

8:46 Speaker 2: from sales anything until that money is completely paid back.

8:51 Speaker 2: So you're not getting a check from the label until

8:56 Speaker 2: all of that advance money has been recouped by the label.

9:01 Speaker 2: So Limp Biscuit So according to UMG, and again they've

9:06 Speaker 2: they've made additional statements now in recent days. But according

9:09 Speaker 2: to UMG, back when this was first filed, their claim was, well, no,

9:14 Speaker 2: we we hadn't paid Limp Biscuit anything because they hadn't,

9:19 Speaker 2: you know, they hadn't settled the recoupment yet. Now this

9:24 Speaker 2: is this is where it really gets nuts. And again,

9:28 Speaker 2: and I have an article in front of me, and

9:29 Speaker 2: I know you have something as well. I have something

9:31 Speaker 2: from Billboard that'll explain this in a little bit more detail.

9:33 Speaker 2: But right now I'm just speaking extemporaneously about what I

9:36 Speaker 2: know about this so far, because I've been following it

9:38 Speaker 2: pretty closely. Feel I'm fascinated by this kind of thing.

9:41 Speaker 2: So what what what happened at one point was so

9:47 Speaker 2: either Fred Durst or representatives of Fred Durst's management or

9:50 Speaker 2: attorneys whomever, probably all of them at various points.

9:54 Speaker 1: Tried to sign in. It's like a record label, a

9:57 Speaker 1: big company like UMG.

10:00 Speaker 3: They will.

10:03 Speaker 2: Create a portal like you know how for anything financial, right,

10:08 Speaker 2: you know, whether a bank account or some sort of service.

10:11 Speaker 1: You know, you have a portal that you log into

10:13 Speaker 1: and you.

10:13 Speaker 2: Can see all your numbers and see what your bank

10:16 Speaker 2: balance is and do all this stuff. Right, So the

10:20 Speaker 2: record label gives you, as an artist, a portal to

10:23 Speaker 2: sign into. But I guess there was one point where uh,

10:27 Speaker 2: Olympus gets this sounds so we're talking about this huge,

10:33 Speaker 2: you know, multimillion dollar company here, right, But they create

10:36 Speaker 2: a portal and they give and so the artist actually gets,

10:41 Speaker 2: you know, a username and password basically to sign into

10:44 Speaker 2: their portal where they can look at all their stuff.

10:47 Speaker 2: The idea being, you know, you can see what your

10:50 Speaker 2: recoupment balance is, how much is left on your recoupment,

10:53 Speaker 2: what royalties are owed to you. You know, you can

10:56 Speaker 2: compare these numbers. And I guess Limpis gets portal wasn't

10:59 Speaker 2: work correctly or hadn't been updated or something.

11:02 Speaker 3: Just weird stuff. Well, we're talking about.

11:05 Speaker 2: A multimillion dollar company here, right, UMG is a huge company,

11:09 Speaker 2: but they can't get the little things right to even

11:13 Speaker 2: make it so that limp Biscuit as a business entity

11:17 Speaker 2: can see what's going on with their account. And but

11:23 Speaker 2: the suspicion is, well that's intentional. Of course, they make

11:26 Speaker 2: it hard because they're trying to hide things. They're trying

11:30 Speaker 2: to hide things from you. They don't want you to

11:31 Speaker 2: see what the real numbers are.

11:33 Speaker 1: Longer.

11:34 Speaker 4: And the other side of that too, that you forget about,

11:37 Speaker 4: is that the longer that UMG has the money in

11:40 Speaker 4: their bank account, the more money it's making for them, right,

11:42 Speaker 4: and exactly exactly. Insurance companies do the same thing. The

11:47 Speaker 4: longer it takes they have to pay out, the more

11:50 Speaker 4: money they make.

11:51 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, of course it's yeah, it's a dirty business.

11:57 Speaker 4: So makes you wonder if there wouldn't be some way

12:00 Speaker 4: to prevent that, like could there be some way to

12:03 Speaker 4: protect artists in law that precludes them from being able

12:10 Speaker 4: to hould onto money like that?

12:12 Speaker 2: Move that MinC up a little bit, would you yere?

12:14 Speaker 2: Just so I'm not loud enough? Yeah, there you go.

12:18 Speaker 3: This is something that we don't normally experience.

12:20 Speaker 1: There you go.

12:22 Speaker 2: But uh yeah, and that so that one million dollars,

12:25 Speaker 2: it was roughly one million that they finally paid Limp

12:28 Speaker 2: Biscuit in September of this year of this year, twenty

12:32 Speaker 2: twenty four, after they started making noise about hey, we

12:36 Speaker 2: haven't been paid anything. That that they they claim that

12:42 Speaker 2: the reason that wasn't paid, it should have been paid,

12:44 Speaker 2: but the reason that wasn't was because of a software error.

12:48 Speaker 2: So because of a software error that that one million

12:51 Speaker 2: dollars just sat there and hadn't gone to the band

12:54 Speaker 2: yet again, Universal Music Group, this enormous, multimillion dollar company.

13:00 Speaker 2: But you know, like it's it's hard. I mean, this

13:04 Speaker 2: will will all be a.

13:05 Speaker 3: Blaming game too.

13:06 Speaker 4: It's a blaming game because UMG is saying, oh no,

13:10 Speaker 4: that this is your management's fault, that your your big

13:15 Speaker 4: manager wasn't like keeping track of things.

13:17 Speaker 3: It's not us, because.

13:21 Speaker 4: They're saying that they can show for over a year

13:24 Speaker 4: they were having good communications with this guy Paul, who's

13:30 Speaker 4: in charge of the manager, but the business manager, and

13:33 Speaker 4: that they were keeping in contact with him, and it's

13:35 Speaker 4: all about them, not you know, it's interesting how they

13:40 Speaker 4: try to like go, oh, look over here, your guy

13:44 Speaker 4: wasn't keeping track of things, so never mind us.

13:46 Speaker 3: Like, look over, it's your guy's fault.

13:48 Speaker 4: He didn't keep track of things, so it's not our

13:51 Speaker 4: fault for not paying you. You know, that's like so

13:54 Speaker 4: twisted that that's what they walk in with and that's

13:56 Speaker 4: actually considered a possibility.

14:00 Speaker 3: How does that even get entertained?

14:01 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, your guy wasn't paying attention, so we got

14:04 Speaker 4: away with keeping more money.

14:05 Speaker 3: So hahaha.

14:07 Speaker 1: This seems wrong.

14:09 Speaker 4: Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's pretty much what

14:12 Speaker 4: it sounds like they're trying to indicate with me, is

14:14 Speaker 4: we didn't conceal anything.

14:16 Speaker 3: You guys just.

14:16 Speaker 1: Didn't keep track of it, right right. This is and

14:22 Speaker 1: sometimes it's not always necessarily malfeasance. Sometimes somebody just signs.

14:27 Speaker 2: A bad deal or or people get in over their

14:31 Speaker 2: heads they don't understand how this all works. Remember when TLC,

14:36 Speaker 2: this is probably one of the greatest examples. When TLC.

14:40 Speaker 2: You know that first album, Crazy Sexy Cool was huge.

14:43 Speaker 2: It sold a gazillion copies, right, well, I think it

14:47 Speaker 2: was triple platinum, but it seems like it was because

14:50 Speaker 2: CLC was everywhere. It seems like the album was was. Uh,

14:53 Speaker 2: you know, I think he sold three million, but they

14:56 Speaker 2: were broke with a triple plat an album. Because of

15:02 Speaker 2: the way the contract was structured and the recruitment, they

15:05 Speaker 2: weren't getting any royalties and they and they were very

15:09 Speaker 2: public about it, and they got their deal renegotiated because

15:13 Speaker 2: because they were very public about it, like they were,

15:16 Speaker 2: they were not shy about talking about what was going on.

15:19 Speaker 2: But they're you know, they're at the Grammys, you know,

15:22 Speaker 2: getting an award for Best New Album or whatever it was,

15:24 Speaker 2: and they're like and they're like, yeah, we we have

15:27 Speaker 2: no money and we've sold three million copies of our

15:31 Speaker 2: album and we're broke. And and that's that's one of

15:36 Speaker 2: the most well publicized examples because I think because they

15:40 Speaker 2: were so public about it, because a lot of times too,

15:44 Speaker 2: you learn about these things later on because at the

15:47 Speaker 2: time that it's happening to an artist, they don't necessarily

15:50 Speaker 2: want to go public about it because they don't want,

15:53 Speaker 2: you know, they don't want to deal with the embarrassment

15:55 Speaker 2: of it. You know, Oh, I got I kind of

15:58 Speaker 2: got screwed here or whatever. My favorite band. Of course,

16:03 Speaker 2: as longtime listeners know, Kiss they actually sued PolyGram. They

16:07 Speaker 2: were on PolyGram. This was in the early eighties, very

16:11 Speaker 2: early eighties. This was like when they were making the

16:14 Speaker 2: transition from makeup to non makeup, and they sued PolyGram

16:18 Speaker 2: for back royalties and they got a settlement over it,

16:23 Speaker 2: although it was kind of well, it was kind of small,

16:27 Speaker 2: but they did get something from it. But we should

16:32 Speaker 2: look at So.

16:33 Speaker 4: The other thing about this, though, this isn't just limp biscuit.

16:36 Speaker 4: And I didn't even realize this until looking back on

16:38 Speaker 4: the notes now that there's another organization that apparently owes

16:42 Speaker 4: some of this, owns some of the copyright, the Flawless Records.

16:45 Speaker 4: It's called Yeah, so apparently that's his imprint, by the way,

16:50 Speaker 4: So what do you mean his imprint?

16:51 Speaker 2: So there was this thing it started happening in the

16:54 Speaker 2: nineties where some artists would if they were on a label,

16:58 Speaker 2: the label would give the art if they were interested

17:01 Speaker 2: in developing other artists, they would give them almost like

17:04 Speaker 2: a sub label, oh, which is part of the bigger label,

17:07 Speaker 2: and they would call that an imprint. So Flawless Records

17:10 Speaker 2: was Fred Durst's imprint, and he actually did break a

17:14 Speaker 2: couple of bands on his imprint label.

17:18 Speaker 4: Well, it's just interesting that you noted they gave limp

17:21 Speaker 4: Biscuit a million. Well, they gave another two million the

17:25 Speaker 4: flawless records.

17:27 Speaker 3: But we don't really owe you any money. It's made up.

17:29 Speaker 4: They're claiming you've made this up, but we're dishing out

17:33 Speaker 4: over three million more dollars. Ooh, sorry, you know, just

17:36 Speaker 4: some money, but we didn't really do anything.

17:39 Speaker 1: It's faked spaghetti accounting.

17:41 Speaker 3: How the heck does that work in law? Though?

17:43 Speaker 4: How do you say this is all made up? And

17:48 Speaker 4: then you're paying money out the other side. But it's

17:51 Speaker 4: like it's like I'm guilty, but I'm not guilty.

17:53 Speaker 2: Right, Well, I think probably they would say flawless records.

17:59 Speaker 2: I mean that's a separate account from the olymp Biscuit account.

18:02 Speaker 1: In fact, flawless records.

18:04 Speaker 2: Probably they probably have a separate user name and password

18:08 Speaker 2: for their their their big fancy portal.

18:12 Speaker 3: Two factor identification.

18:14 Speaker 1: Yes, it's probably very, very up to date.

18:17 Speaker 3: I'm sure it operates much like insurance portals.

18:19 Speaker 4: You know. It's like you want to appeal that. Okay,

18:22 Speaker 4: get a pen and paper. Let's sit down and write

18:24 Speaker 4: an old fashioned letter. Nothing electronic about this.

18:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, send us a certified letter.

18:30 Speaker 3: Meanwhile, give us your money.

18:31 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you'll get your royalties.

18:33 Speaker 3: You don't even have to.

18:34 Speaker 4: Put your card in, just skin it. I'll take your

18:36 Speaker 4: money very easily. Yeah, but not the other way around.

18:41 Speaker 1: So this is the update.

18:42 Speaker 2: This is from Billboard dot com. UMG hits back at

18:45 Speaker 2: Olympus guts two hundred million dollar lawsuit, calls hidden royalty

18:49 Speaker 2: accusations fiction. It says here UMG is firing back at

18:54 Speaker 2: a lawsuit from Olympus at front Manfred Durst, claiming the

18:56 Speaker 2: label owes the band more than two hundred million dollars,

19:00 Speaker 2: calling the allegation's fiction, and demanding they be thrown out

19:03 Speaker 2: of court. The blockbuster lawsuit, filed last month in LA

19:06 Speaker 2: federal court, claimed that Durst had not seen a diamond

19:10 Speaker 2: royalties over the decades, and that hundreds of other artists

19:13 Speaker 2: may have been treated similarly under systemic and fraudulent policies.

19:19 Speaker 2: But in UMG's first response, this is UMG's they're finally

19:23 Speaker 2: responding to this officially after several months, well a couple months.

19:27 Speaker 2: In their first response on Friday, attorneys for the label

19:30 Speaker 2: said the lawsuit must be dismissed immediately because it is

19:33 Speaker 2: based on a fallacy.

19:37 Speaker 1: Writers. Rolin A.

19:39 Speaker 2: Ransom, an attorney with the law firm Sidley Austen who

19:44 Speaker 2: represents UMG in the suit, said, quote, Plaintiff's entire narrative

19:47 Speaker 2: that UMG tried to conceal royalties is a fiction. Plaintiff's

19:51 Speaker 2: complaint fails as a matter of law and should be

19:55 Speaker 2: dismissed with prejudice unquote. The key problem with Durst's claims,

19:59 Speaker 2: according to UMG these attorneys, it's that documents included in

20:03 Speaker 2: his own lawsuit eviscerate his allegations. They specifically cite emails

20:07 Speaker 2: in which a UMG exec appears to have reached out

20:10 Speaker 2: to get royalties flowing, but was rebuffed by the band's

20:14 Speaker 2: own business manager.

20:15 Speaker 1: Yeah.

20:16 Speaker 2: I remember reading that part too, and that doesn't make sense,

20:21 Speaker 2: like why would that even happen? But that's that's what

20:26 Speaker 2: they're claiming now. The company also said in Friday's filing, quote,

20:30 Speaker 2: over a year before plaintiff's discovery of allegedly concealed royalties,

20:35 Speaker 2: UMG affirmatively and unilaterally reached out to Olympis Gut's representative

20:40 Speaker 2: so that it could begin making royalty payments to the band,

20:43 Speaker 2: and was instead informed by him that all members of

20:46 Speaker 2: Olympis Gut but one, including plaintiff Durst, had assigned their

20:50 Speaker 2: royalty shares to others and were therefore not entitled any

20:54 Speaker 2: royalty payments from UMG unquote.

20:57 Speaker 3: So it's not that I owe you money. It's that

21:00 Speaker 3: or not. I don't. You don't actually have the right

21:02 Speaker 3: to assume me. So even the way all your.

21:04 Speaker 1: Money, I'm not going to give it to you, I

21:06 Speaker 1: don't know, don't.

21:07 Speaker 3: Almost, I don't know. That's what it feels like. But

21:09 Speaker 3: you were right.

21:10 Speaker 4: There's another notation I just found on Music Business World

21:13 Speaker 4: that it's also involving other artists. Yeah, from that Durst

21:19 Speaker 4: did have under flawless records. Yeah, yeah, So it's not

21:22 Speaker 4: just Lumbiscuit, it's other bands music as well.

21:25 Speaker 1: Does it mention who are there? Anything?

21:27 Speaker 3: It does it?

21:27 Speaker 1: It does it?

21:29 Speaker 3: It just says other.

21:30 Speaker 2: Because there's at least one one band that that he broke,

21:33 Speaker 2: that broke big, that had a big hit, and I

21:35 Speaker 2: can't remember who it was now. So in a statement

21:38 Speaker 2: to Billboard on Monday, durst lawyers sharply refuted the arguments

21:42 Speaker 2: made in UMG's motion to dismiss the case. Attorney Mark

21:46 Speaker 2: Fabiani said quote. When someone has caught red handed, their

21:50 Speaker 2: first response is often to hire very expensive outside law

21:53 Speaker 2: firms who first, as a matter of course, try anything

21:56 Speaker 2: to dismiss the suit when they are in trouble with

21:59 Speaker 2: the facts. In this case, we believe UMG is using

22:02 Speaker 2: a typical, formulaic, well trodden strategy of reaching for any

22:07 Speaker 2: escape route by desperately grasping at technicalities unquote. Durst and

22:12 Speaker 2: Lymbiscuits sued UMG in October, claiming that the band had

22:17 Speaker 2: quote never received any royalties from UMG unquote despite its

22:20 Speaker 2: huge success over the years. Quote, the band had still

22:23 Speaker 2: not been paid a single cent by UMG in any

22:26 Speaker 2: royalties until taking action unquote.

22:30 Speaker 4: So interestingly, Dearth is the sole owner of Flawless Records.

22:37 Speaker 1: Interestingly, I think I may have.

22:44 Speaker 2: When I was talking about how an imprint works, I

22:46 Speaker 2: may have misspoken. It's not like it's a part of

22:49 Speaker 2: the label, but it's so because there were a number

22:54 Speaker 2: of artists who who did this. This was a thing

22:56 Speaker 2: in the nineties and into the two thousands, Like I

23:00 Speaker 2: think jay Z had an imprint and some others.

23:03 Speaker 1: So it's it's like.

23:05 Speaker 2: A separate record label, but the major label that the

23:09 Speaker 2: imprint is associated with handles all the distribution. So even

23:15 Speaker 2: though the imprint kind of is kind of is an

23:20 Speaker 2: independent label, in a sense, the major label that's associated

23:26 Speaker 2: with does well. The imprint gets used the major label's

23:31 Speaker 2: entire distribution pipeline and whatever other promotional resources are available.

23:38 Speaker 1: So that makes sense.

23:39 Speaker 2: And I think Gene Simmons, by you know, I mentioned

23:42 Speaker 2: Kiss earlier, Gene Simmons had an imprint label. Actually before

23:46 Speaker 2: it was even really a thing in the eighties, he

23:50 Speaker 2: had an as I think I think it was, it

23:52 Speaker 2: was just called Simmons Records.

23:54 Speaker 1: I think it was. It was before imprints were really

23:57 Speaker 1: a thing.

23:57 Speaker 3: But did he did he ever break anybody?

24:00 Speaker 1: No, it didn't last.

24:02 Speaker 2: Jane tried a lot of things in the eighties that

24:04 Speaker 2: didn't last, Like he tried producing other artists and you know,

24:09 Speaker 2: and of course he had a short lived acting career, and.

24:11 Speaker 3: You would think that would have made more money than Lunchbox.

24:14 Speaker 1: But no, oh no, well, oh no.

24:17 Speaker 2: No, no, no, it says here The claim was something

24:21 Speaker 2: of a stunner. How had one of the biggest bands

24:24 Speaker 2: of its era, which sold millions of records during the

24:28 Speaker 2: music industry's MTV fueled turn of the century glory days.

24:32 Speaker 2: Because remember we're talking late nineties into the early two thousands.

24:35 Speaker 2: How did they still never have been paid any royalties

24:39 Speaker 2: nearly three decades later. According to Durst, the answer was

24:44 Speaker 2: an appalling and unsettling scheme to conceal royalties from artists

24:48 Speaker 2: and keep those profits for itself. He claimed the company

24:52 Speaker 2: essentially kept Limpiscit in the red with shady bookkeeping, allowing

24:57 Speaker 2: it to falsely claim the band remained unrecouped, meaning its

25:01 Speaker 2: royalties still had not surpassed the amount the group had

25:04 Speaker 2: been paid in upfront advances. In other words, the advance

25:07 Speaker 2: had not been the advances because an advance for each

25:11 Speaker 2: album had not been paid back.

25:12 Speaker 1: According but the.

25:13 Speaker 4: Bulk of the main thrust of the claim was that

25:16 Speaker 4: they sold like forty five million albums and never got

25:19 Speaker 4: a dime of royalty.

25:21 Speaker 3: Yeah until they filed a lawsuit. Yeah, then they got money.

25:25 Speaker 3: But now they're still saying, no, you made that a.

25:27 Speaker 2: Well or until they well, yeah, well until they until

25:31 Speaker 2: they started making noise about it because they got that million.

25:34 Speaker 2: UMG finally gave them that million back in September, but

25:36 Speaker 2: the suit was actually filed in October.

25:38 Speaker 4: No, but the motion to dismiss they filed was November

25:41 Speaker 4: twenty second, so that just happened.

25:44 Speaker 3: You just filed the motion to dismiss.

25:47 Speaker 1: Right, they're just now responding.

25:49 Speaker 4: But quote unquote, because the complaint is based on a fallacy,

25:53 Speaker 4: how do you say that after you just handed out

25:55 Speaker 4: three million dollars?

25:56 Speaker 3: Like, I don't get that.

25:58 Speaker 4: Well, how is that a vibe elbow motion after you

26:01 Speaker 4: just hand it over three mil?

26:03 Speaker 2: Well, but I think they're saying that's all. That's all

26:05 Speaker 2: they were owed, you know, the million, the million to

26:09 Speaker 2: uh Limp Biscuit, that's all.

26:10 Speaker 3: Then the two million to the record to the label.

26:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's kind of a separate thing the sub label.

26:15 Speaker 4: Yeah it is, but it isn't because there's is a

26:17 Speaker 4: son owner, so technically he's the dude on both ends.

26:21 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's getting the three mil. It's just under two

26:24 Speaker 3: different names.

26:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is strange that his imprint label would have

26:27 Speaker 2: more money coming to it than you know, the band

26:31 Speaker 2: he's in that sold for forty five million records, right yeah.

26:36 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well it because goes to back up everything we've

26:38 Speaker 4: been talking about. Yeah, how these companies really have ripped

26:42 Speaker 4: off artists for a really long time.

26:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean what do.

26:45 Speaker 3: They artists get? What's an artist get these days?

26:47 Speaker 4: If they're streaming like less than a quarter of a

26:51 Speaker 4: penny or something like that, Like they there's no they

26:56 Speaker 4: have to have a ridiculous number of plays before they

26:59 Speaker 4: can even make an enough money to pay for a meal.

27:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's barely anything. Spotify doesn't a lot of art.

27:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, they won't put their stuff on Spotify because it

27:07 Speaker 4: is a big rip off for them.

27:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't get anything out of it.

27:10 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, if everybody's using Spotify and

27:13 Speaker 4: you don't put your music on there, you know, it's

27:16 Speaker 4: a catch twenty two for an artist.

27:18 Speaker 3: You want to be heard, but you also want to

27:19 Speaker 3: get paid, you know. It's kind of the part of

27:23 Speaker 3: the point.

27:24 Speaker 4: Yes, sharing music is wonderful, but it's also about getting

27:26 Speaker 4: paid as an artist.

27:28 Speaker 3: To everything you bring to the table.

27:32 Speaker 1: There is there is this.

27:37 Speaker 2: There is a certain truth though. So another thing people

27:41 Speaker 2: probably don't know who aren't in the industry is that

27:45 Speaker 2: it's really always been the case to some degree that

27:49 Speaker 2: artists don't make that much in simple royalties in the

27:55 Speaker 2: sense that like I remember I remember meat Loaf talking

28:01 Speaker 2: in an interview once about how you know, like like

28:04 Speaker 2: when Bad out of Hell, which I have no idea

28:07 Speaker 2: at this point, how many millions of uh? I mean,

28:10 Speaker 2: it's probably surpassed one hundred million albums sold by now.

28:14 Speaker 2: But I remember early in his career he was talking

28:17 Speaker 2: about how little money he got, you know, like like

28:20 Speaker 2: pennies per units sold The Bad out of Hell. But

28:24 Speaker 2: the truth is the real money for a very long time,

28:31 Speaker 2: the real money has been in touring.

28:34 Speaker 1: You know, you can.

28:34 Speaker 2: You can make a lot of money on tour, a

28:37 Speaker 2: lot more money on tour than actual than actual sales albums, right,

28:43 Speaker 2: which is why some artists tour so much. For example,

28:50 Speaker 2: when Jerry Garcia died. I remember I was never a

28:53 Speaker 2: big dead head, so I didn't I didn't even realize this.

28:56 Speaker 1: But when when.

28:58 Speaker 2: Jerry Garcia died, I was reading out how because people

29:03 Speaker 2: wondered why why did he keep touring so much? Because

29:06 Speaker 2: apparently toward the end of his life there were people

29:08 Speaker 2: close to him who wanted him to stop because his

29:10 Speaker 2: health was failing, and people wanted him to take a break.

29:13 Speaker 2: They wanted him to stop touring, whether it was with

29:16 Speaker 2: The Grateful Dead or the Jerry Garcia band, and he

29:20 Speaker 2: just kept going because you sometimes these artists get to

29:24 Speaker 2: a point where they can't afford to stop, because you

29:27 Speaker 2: stop and then the money stops. And if you have

29:31 Speaker 2: an entire organization to pay for, you're not just supporting yourself,

29:36 Speaker 2: but you've got managers and lawyers and got any jobs.

29:41 Speaker 3: There many people, you.

29:41 Speaker 2: Know, the these organizations become bloated, and you know, you

29:47 Speaker 2: might have touring staff who you want to keep on

29:49 Speaker 2: retainer even when you're not touring, so that they don't

29:52 Speaker 2: go off and work for somebody else when you're not touring,

29:55 Speaker 2: and then you can't get them back for your tour.

29:57 Speaker 1: So you might be paying them all year round, even

29:59 Speaker 1: when you're not active.

30:00 Speaker 3: So I have a thought about that way.

30:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a lot of artists, you know, they tour

30:07 Speaker 2: so much because it becomes a situation where they cannot

30:11 Speaker 2: afford not to like, they can't get off of the

30:13 Speaker 2: road because it ends up costing more to be off

30:16 Speaker 2: the road than on the road.

30:18 Speaker 4: That makes sense, It certainly doesn't make sense because that's

30:21 Speaker 4: where you're gonna make your money, not just ticket sales,

30:24 Speaker 4: but march you know.

30:27 Speaker 2: And now touring has become more expensive and so it's

30:32 Speaker 2: kind of become a situation now.

30:35 Speaker 1: Where it's it's hard to tour. It's harder to tour.

30:40 Speaker 2: So look a look at now the money's made more

30:43 Speaker 2: with merch than anything.

30:44 Speaker 4: Look at the guests we had recently, Green and Yellow, right,

30:48 Speaker 4: they're constantly touring. And not only are they constantly touring,

30:52 Speaker 4: they try to keep their expenses down, Like they have

30:54 Speaker 4: actual school buses that have beds in them so they

30:58 Speaker 4: can actually sleep on the road, and there's other vans

31:01 Speaker 4: and then equipment that goes along so they can keep

31:04 Speaker 4: their costs down.

31:05 Speaker 3: But they're like constantly touring.

31:07 Speaker 4: They might get to take a small break of maybe

31:10 Speaker 4: a few days or you know, but you go check

31:13 Speaker 4: them out and they're constantly going all around the country Canada.

31:18 Speaker 4: They're constantly on the move, and you know, you can

31:21 Speaker 4: imagine it's it would be hard for them to stop

31:23 Speaker 4: because then the money stops.

31:25 Speaker 3: How do you put gas in the.

31:26 Speaker 4: Car if you're not touring, you know, you can't afford

31:29 Speaker 4: to have the money stop, So it is it's a

31:31 Speaker 4: vicious circle. You have to really love what you're doing,

31:34 Speaker 4: that's for sure, which obviously those guys do. I mean,

31:37 Speaker 4: if you've never seen Green Jello. When they come back around,

31:39 Speaker 4: you have to see them. They're amazing in person. They

31:41 Speaker 4: just freaking amazing and so much fun. If you want

31:46 Speaker 4: to go to a show that's joy, go see Green Jello.

31:49 Speaker 4: It's just joy.

31:51 Speaker 3: I know you can't help but feel good with walking

31:54 Speaker 3: away from one of their shows.

31:55 Speaker 4: But they're constantly in motion, and that constant motion comes

32:00 Speaker 4: with a lot of expenses because I'll see, Oh, what

32:03 Speaker 4: was it? There was something that went recently. It was

32:05 Speaker 4: like their their starter and one of the buses went.

32:09 Speaker 4: So they were fundraising to get the starter repaired because.

32:13 Speaker 3: They're in the middle of a tour.

32:15 Speaker 1: You know.

32:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a vicious circle.

32:17 Speaker 4: And these guys, especially nowadays, you don't make You're not

32:20 Speaker 4: making the money off of streaming. Certainly right now, there

32:23 Speaker 4: is something to be said for physical media.

32:26 Speaker 3: You know, there can be some money these days. Records

32:29 Speaker 3: are coming back CD.

32:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's.

32:33 Speaker 4: Not gonna be It's never gonna be like it was

32:35 Speaker 4: when we were younger, no where. The only way you

32:38 Speaker 4: got the music was to go find it in a

32:41 Speaker 4: store in a record store and bring it home, or

32:45 Speaker 4: sit in front of the radio with your fingers ready

32:48 Speaker 4: on record so you could try to record the song

32:51 Speaker 4: off the radio.

32:52 Speaker 1: Oh yeah didn't.

32:53 Speaker 4: Yeah, we all did, right, That was that was how

32:55 Speaker 4: you got to hear your song, or you had to

32:57 Speaker 4: wait for it to come back around.

32:59 Speaker 3: Now we have instant.

33:00 Speaker 4: Gratification music through streaming. It's just not it's never going

33:04 Speaker 4: to be that again. It's instant gratification. So really the

33:09 Speaker 4: artists are limited on where they're going to make their money.

33:12 Speaker 4: It really is in those live venues, in selling merch

33:15 Speaker 4: at the live venues, and that's really the only way

33:18 Speaker 4: they're going to sustain themselves off their art.

33:21 Speaker 2: That's why a lot of artists get into podcasting too,

33:24 Speaker 2: although you see it more with stand up comics than

33:27 Speaker 2: you do with musicians necessarily, but there's you know, if

33:31 Speaker 2: you're that's the thing, if you're even a tiny bit famous,

33:35 Speaker 2: you can start a YouTube channel and monetize it, get

33:37 Speaker 2: monetized quickly and create content that way. Justin Hawkins is

33:43 Speaker 2: a great example of that from the band The Darkness.

33:45 Speaker 2: You know, he has a very popular podcast called Justin

33:49 Speaker 2: Hawkins Rides Again and and it's it's really good. It's

33:53 Speaker 2: a lot of fun, and it's also very informative because

33:56 Speaker 2: he delves into a lot of these music industry issues

33:58 Speaker 2: as well. So that's another one I would recommend it

34:00 Speaker 2: if you're interested in this stuff. Justin Hawkins Rides again.

34:03 Speaker 2: But yeah, so a lot of people in the industry

34:06 Speaker 2: have had to seek other revenue streams.

34:10 Speaker 4: And it's and that really these days, it's in that

34:14 Speaker 4: live concert. It's in moving those bodies into a venue

34:18 Speaker 4: that you're going to make the most money.

34:20 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, yes, indeed, and that and that's harder.

34:23 Speaker 4: It's harder on artists, and it certainly benefits people like UMG,

34:28 Speaker 4: yeah obviously, but.

34:31 Speaker 3: I really it just kills.

34:32 Speaker 4: Me that they pay it all out and then they suddenly, oh,

34:37 Speaker 4: this is made up.

34:40 Speaker 3: How do you do that? I don't know. Is it

34:43 Speaker 3: just me that I find that flabby?

34:46 Speaker 4: It's awful to see what these lengths companies will go

34:49 Speaker 4: to to rip off the artists that they're making their

34:52 Speaker 4: money off.